Mackie PA system help!

[jacobrownoly]

Hello, I am writing for help and advice on our new Mackie PA gear. We are a wedding/function band that play rock and pop covers, our line up consists of Vocals, Guitar, Keyboard/synth, Drums and Bass. We recently bought 2 Mackie SRM450s, 1 Mackie SRM1801 (sub) and 1 Mackie CFX12 mixer. We play weddings that normally consisted anywhere between 200-400 people.


We run the system as Mackie states to do with the mains and sub running together with the build in cross over. (Levels halfway on mains and sub) The problem is that we just can't seem to get a good sound out of the system, the mains alone sound fantastic but we are having issues in regards to the sub (SRM1801). We run everything through the system just to get a good balance FOH but we can't get the bass guitar and kick to sound right.


Although we like the 'thump' that the sub provides, the bass and kick sound too muddy and lacks a lot of definition (hard to pick out) This is the bit that I need the help with! (we had planned to eventually get another SRM1801 for the complete package!)


On the mixer (CFX12) I use the low cuts on everything apart from the bass and kick, I also use the low cuts on the mains (SRM450s) with very little EQ on the desk (I try to keep everything flat, and normally cut instead of boost) again as Mackie recommends). We also use a DBX 15 band EQ for cutting out feedback and a DBX compressor (just a little bit of compression) on the MAIN inserts on the desk.


Overall the system doesn't sound bad and we are pleased with our investment in Mackie. I am hoping that most of it is down to my amateur knowledge of being a sound man and that some useful help and advice will set me on the right track.


Hope this makes sense and that someone is able to shed some light on this.


Many thanks

 

[Rob Lewis]

We have the same system as you do, and found that there was too much low end meaning that we had to attenuate on the 1801. We recently tried driving the 1801 from an AUX on the desk but that wasn't very satisfactory either, with low volume output. I haven't checked the manual yet, but obviously driving it from an AUX means only using one input. The problem with attenuating it on the sub's rear panel is that our soundman has no real control.

 

[jacobrownoly]

bump

 

[modulusman]

It sounds to me like an EQ problem. I use to have Mackie 450s and 1501 subs and it worked well together.

 

[Vinny D]

First... I would get rid of the compressor on the mains.
Seeing how you are obviously a newbie at running a PA system you should keep things simple first.
I for one have never found a need for running compression on the entire PA.

Anyway,
Does the system sound good reproducing playback music?
If so, the trouble is not with the PA.
The trouble is with what you are putting into it.
Not having a good lick drum sound or bass guitar sound could be multiple issues.
Kick drum:
Is it tuned properly?
What mic are you using?
Is the placement of the mic optimal?
How does it sound on its own when mic'ed and running through the PA?

Bass guitar:
How are you sending it to the PA, mic or DI?
What Mic/DI are you using?
If a DI is it Pre or Post EQ?
Do you scoop your mids out of your signal?
How does it sound by itself in the PA?

Answer those and you will get better help on what is going on with your issues.

 

[jacobrownoly]

First... I would get rid of the compressor on the mains.
Seeing how you are obviously a newbie at running a PA system you should keep things simple first.
I for one have never found a need for running compression on the entire PA.

Anyway,
Does the system sound good reproducing playback music?
If so, the trouble is not with the PA.
The trouble is with what you are putting into it.
Not having a good lick drum sound or bass guitar sound could be multiple issues.
Kick drum:
Is it tuned properly?
What mic are you using?
Is the placement of the mic optimal?
How does it sound on its own when mic'ed and running through the PA?

Bass guitar:
How are you sending it to the PA, mic or DI?
What Mic/DI are you using?
If a DI is it Pre or Post EQ?
Do you scoop your mids out of your signal?
How does it sound by itself in the PA?

Answer those and you will get better help on what is going on with your issues.

Yes the sound system sounds great when the ipod is playing into the mixer.

I run my fender jazz in my GK 1001 II D.I in post mode, everything mostly flat. (normally a great setup)

As far as I am aware the drummer has a quality kick drum mic too.

Should our sub always be on the ground floor, we had it up 3 feet on stage last time and it sounded terrible.

What level should we be setting the sub in contrast to the mains?

 

[Vinny D]

Yes the sound system sounds great when the ipod is playing into the mixer.

So that tells me the issue lies within what you are sending into the PA and how you are EQ'ing things.

I run my fender jazz in my GK 1001 II D.I in post mode, everything mostly flat. (normally a great setup)

How did it sound coming through the PA on its own?

As far as I am aware the drummer has a quality kick drum mic too.

Letting us know what he actually has would be helpful, most mic's have key things they need/like in order to sound good (such as placement and starting EQ points)
Also, how did just the kick sound coming through the PA?

Should our sub always be on the ground floor, we had it up 3 feet on stage last time and it sounded terrible.

As usual it depends...I generally find having subs on the floor works best, but in some rooms where it is naturally boom'ish, moving them up off the floor can help.
As long as you were not getting too much of a boom on stage from having the sub sitting there you should have been fine.

What level should we be setting the sub in contrast to the mains?

Again, it depends...
Certain rooms may require you to run the subs a bit hotter to get the bottom end you like/want.
Sometimes in a room that is already to bass'ish you will have to dial them back a little.

Playing around with a 31 band EQ will help a LOT in learning what makes your sub come alive, or make it sound like mud.
Some rooms you may get away with running the frequencies completely flat, some rooms you may have to make cuts in the 80 - 120hz range to smoothen the response out.

 

[jacobrownoly]

Hi, to shed more light on this subject Mackie got back to me saying that we should try turning up the level on the subs and eq out the lowest frequenes on the desk.

Can anyone explain this further?

Many thanks!

 

[4Mal]

IMo you have to build your sound from the bottom up. D a wiki or google search on 'frequency slotting'. See if you cannfind an article in Tape Op written by Larry Crane...

I prefer to stat by getting a good kick drum and then the reat of the kit. Then I like to work with the bass guitar cutting out the frequencies that do not interact well with the kick. If I got it right, I can hear the kick and bass, as distinctly separate and well defined. I would prefer too take my bass straight on into the board - pre eq. Pre the amp actually. I run a radial before my Gk head which lets me do whatever with the amp onstage without messing with the mix in the PA.

Kick drum mic...i prefer the Audix D6 for a modern pop rock or r&b take on a kick drum. The heil PR40 is good but warmer. More old school funk and r&b. The D6 is and easy mic to work with iMO. Needs very little other than placement - which depends on the head and the drum and tuning.

Overall my philosophy is that it is tougher to get a good drum sound so do that first and then find a bass guitar soundthat will mesh well with it. Solo'ed,the bass might not be the fat rich sound in your head. My goal is that when the drums and bass are playing together I go ooo and ahhh... Obviously the better they sound solo'ed the better. If I have to compromise, I'll compromise with the bass first is all...

If keys are involved, they come next...

The cfx series mixer is not helping. The eq is very limited and overall I find the mixer to be kinda not clear.... There are many better choices. Still you should be able to get something workable. The individual channel eq's should be as close to flat as possible as I believe that is where some of the mud I heard came from... If you find yourself cutting and boosting EQ on the channels, maybe you need to go back to the signal source and adjust that instead... Different mics on the vocals - I auditioned a boatload of mics before settling on what works for me. Different mics or different placement on guitar cab's. i also tend to cut lows out of the stage monitors - that is room and scenario dependant... More often than not though... That can help cut some boom.

Last thing for the moment. Get a wireless and get out front when sound checking!

Now go see if you can find that article on frequency slotting. Out of any of my advice, it is by far the most salient...

 

[uhdinator]

IMO and experience I have found that many powered subs built in crossovers
Are around the 120hz range and can sound better/tighter if fed by an active crossover with a lower point around 90-100hz.

Are you going L/R out of mixer to sub L/R in, then sending the HI pass outs to the 450's?

If not and say your patching into the 450's then thru to sub, and they have a LF range down to say 60hz for an example purpose. Then from 60hz up to 120hz is being reproduced by the 450's and the sub, causing a increase/bump by a few db in that range. Adding mud.

Going to sub then to 450's will give more clarity and headroom to the mid and HF.

Often I'll dial back some LF on the mixers bass guitar channel.

Have also seen inexperienced sound persons that assume the kick is LF so they cut HF and boost the bejesus out of the LF. With only a 3 band EQ on your mixer and the mid band freq being fixed, its not ideal but try pulling back mid's a little and boost HF and LF a bit.
You need some of the attack of the kick in the 450's as well as the sub to sound clear and punchy. Kick mic closer to beater head will reduce LF and add attack, pulling it back to just inside the the hole will add boom and reduce attack.

With a 4 band with 2 mid band sweepable EQ I usually start with a HF and hi mid around 5k boost, a cut in lo mid 200-400hz range an a little LF boost if needed.

 

[Big_Daws]

also the CFX console doesn't have very good mic pre-amps or rather gain structure on the pre-amps ...i honestly would suggest another sound console. this console has been a pain in my ass and has bitten me a few times.

im sorry to say that, but the CFX series console is probably most of your problem here...

 

[walterw]

We play weddings that normally consisted anywhere between 200-400 people.

then you should be making enough money to skip over the amateur gear struggles and just hire pro sound and let them handle it.

at the very least you should be able to afford a good soundguy who knows how to make your own gear work like it should.

 

[Floyd Eye]

Outside of quality gear, a permanent sound guy is the best investment a band can make.

I agree though that your board needs to go. You may need better kick drum mics and you may need to invest in a couple good 31 band EQs. I would say you are better off being able to control your own X-over frequencies as well.

Find a good soundguy and pay him an equal cut.

 

[didgeribass]

Before making more investments in expensive (and more complex) gear, I would hire a pro soundguy to come to your rehearsal to work on the sound with you and explain to you what the issues actually are.