Magnets & Copper Wire: A Pickup Building Thread

[Kinkh]

A few guys I work with, have ordered some PRUSAs (don't know if they're clones or not), for about 150€~200€ form Aliexpress, Banggood, Ebay and similar sources. They buy from sellers with warehouses in the EU so it was duty free, so I don't know how you guys in the US would handle this kind of stuff.
Other than that, the printers are really ok working.
Only downside is that they are painfully slow - the EMG cover a posted I few posts back had a print time of 1.5h. Ant that's without the finest detail setting and no 100% infill.
Ok for prototyping definitely.

 

[Kinkh]

I think your prototypes look really good! I commend you for taking on a difficult pickup design.

Here's my take, and you can follow it or reject it - that's up to you. Keep in mind, I've never made a Wal-style multicoil myself, but I have experimented a fair amount with neodymium magnets. In your case especially, those neos, more than anything, are going to be a real PITA. They're hard to manage, and once you start wrapping more wire on them, they start to get real dark sounding.

From what I understand, (I'm sure others with more experience @MPU @slowburnaz can chime in) the Wal pickup is a pretty tried and true design of 10000 turns of #42 around each coil. I'm not sure if they use AlNiCo cylinders or a ceramic bar magnet, but either one would work fine.

If this was my project, and I was trying to execute a complicated magnetic structure like a Wal multi-coil, I would probably opt for a more streamlined approach and use C8's or AlNiCo 5 magnets rather than struggle with the neos. It's not to say that it can't be done or that you won't be able to do it. It is to say that making these pickups with neodymium magnets is going to be a lot more difficult, and the end result won't be radically different from the results you would get from a different magnet.

One other thing - all those other extra bits of metal - the threaded inserts and the keeper nuts on the bottom of your coils - you want to minimize the use of magnetic and conductive materials. Keep in mind that all these thing will have an affect on the sound - whether or not that is your intention is another issue. Seeing those nuts ring alarm bells in my mind. Personally, I try to think in terms of how I'm shaping a magnetic field wrapped in electrical current. A better option would be to have those screws thread into a single steel bar. You can then use that bar to attach your magnet. Another approach I've seen guys do is use a PCB with holes into which non-threaded pole pieces can be press fit.

The threaded inserts - they also appear to be made of metal, which is not optimal. Not only that, they take up a lot of space where you could be wrapping more wire. You're using up a lot of your wire channel with those inserts. I'd recommend just wrapping the wire directly around an insulated pole - be it a steel slug or AlNiCo cylinder - and use flatwork on the top and bottom to make a bobbin.

Other than that, your engineering looks very neat and tidy. Certainly much neater that I could do. I hope this helps.

Wow thanks fort such a detailed reply!

I actually do agree with you that in theory it would have been easier to to go with the true and tried design, but...
I had to work with what I have, mostly limited resources. Normal magnets were hard to find for me, while there is an abundance of neos that can be bough cheap for China. But they are a real PITA for sure - I had to use those keeper nuts just to hold them off from not flying everywhere. A lot of them just shattered from collisions while flying to each other. I was gonna remove the nuts after I glued it all with epoxy though.

The steel bar approach seemed the best for me as well, but as I said, my mechanical skills were/are not up to the task, nor do I have all the tools for the job.
Also I couldn't make the bobbins large enough to fit 10000 turns, because I only have 15mm of string spacing.

Agree on the metallic parts as well, not optimal, but it's what I had on hand. Interestingly enough, the brass thread in the centre didn't have any measurable effect on the resonant frequency of a single bobbin. However I have no idea how it affect the pickup as a whole, with al 10 bobbins present. The steel screw interestingly lowered the resonance of a single bobbin for about ~3kHz, but since it was at ~80kHz, it didn't seem bothering.

So yeah... Next my next steps would be to make better bobbins, and hopefully find some non-neo magnets to work with.
If anything I'll post here once I have new stuff to show off in hopes of getting some good input like this

 

[Freekmagnet]

Normal magnets were hard to find for me, while there is an abundance of neos that can be bough cheap for China.

Hmm - there got to be some magnet suppliers in the EU that will ship to you. I know of a couple of Chinese suppliers, but they usually want you to order 100 pieces.

I know of at least one pickup maker in Italy. You could ask him where to get some magnets. I hate to send people to the pickup makers forum because it's not a very fun scene over there, but he goes by Lt. Kojak. Or you could search that forum - I know there's a few other EU guys who hang there. Or post a question, but I'd search first.

Pickup Makers - Music Electronics Forum

The steel bar approach seemed the best for me as well, but as I said, my mechanical skills were/are not up to the task, nor do I have all the tools for the job.

I'm going to warn you, and I'm not trying to be hard on you: a major part of pickup making is building your mechanical skills. You have to learn them. Honestly, just looking at your work, you're on the right track. It looks like you have more mechanical skill than you think you do.

All that being said, you don't need a ton of tools right away.

It looks like you have access to a 3D printer - you can a lot with just that. I wish I had one myself!

I used to make my bobbins out of paper. (Sometimes I still do) Here's a picture of some I made for my multi-coil neodymium sidewinder. Don't ask me about it - haha that was a very dark time for me!

More cardboard:

These were my best cardboard bobbins - I actually had these laser cut.

Or you could do as I suggested earlier and try using PCBs. You can order PCB's from JLCPCB with the holes drilled in them. You'd have to press fit the poles. You'd also have to design the PCB, but there's cheap software to do it. EasyEDA is free. JLCPCB is in China and their turnaround is quick and their shipping to the US is fast. You could probably order 20 bobbins for $20USD.

Also I couldn't make the bobbins large enough to fit 10000 turns, because I only have 15mm of string spacing.

Make the bobbins taller.

 

[slowburnaz]

I think your prototypes look really good! I commend you for taking on a difficult pickup design.

Here's my take, and you can follow it or reject it - that's up to you. Keep in mind, I've never made a Wal-style multicoil myself, but I have experimented a fair amount with neodymium magnets. In your case especially, those neos, more than anything, are going to be a real PITA. They're hard to manage, and once you start wrapping more wire on them, they start to get real dark sounding.

From what I understand, (I'm sure others with more experience @MPU @slowburnaz can chime in) the Wal pickup is a pretty tried and true design of 10000 turns of #42 around each coil. I'm not sure if they use AlNiCo cylinders or a ceramic bar magnet, but either one would work fine.

If this was my project, and I was trying to execute a complicated magnetic structure like a Wal multi-coil, I would probably opt for a more streamlined approach and use C8's or AlNiCo 5 magnets rather than struggle with the neos. It's not to say that it can't be done or that you won't be able to do it. It is to say that making these pickups with neodymium magnets is going to be a lot more difficult, and the end result won't be radically different from the results you would get from a different magnet.

One other thing - all those other extra bits of metal - the threaded inserts and the keeper nuts on the bottom of your coils - you want to minimize the use of magnetic and conductive materials. Keep in mind that all these thing will have an affect on the sound - whether or not that is your intention is another issue. Seeing those nuts ring alarm bells in my mind. Personally, I try to think in terms of how I'm shaping a magnetic field wrapped in electrical current. A better option would be to have those screws thread into a single steel bar. You can then use that bar to attach your magnet. Another approach I've seen guys do is use a PCB with holes into which non-threaded pole pieces can be press fit.

The threaded inserts - they also appear to be made of metal, which is not optimal. Not only that, they take up a lot of space where you could be wrapping more wire. You're using up a lot of your wire channel with those inserts. I'd recommend just wrapping the wire directly around an insulated pole - be it a steel slug or AlNiCo cylinder - and use flatwork on the top and bottom to make a bobbin.

Other than that, your engineering looks very neat and tidy. Certainly much neater that I could do. I hope this helps.

You're right... the Wal pickups use coils that have 10000 winds of 42awg wire. They also use some fairly large steel keepers, and four blocks of C8 ceramic mags:

The multicoils I do have around 8000 winds of 42awg, less massive keepers, a more standard humbucker-sized ceramic magnet, but bigger steel poles.

 

[slowburnaz]

Make the bobbins taller.

Yup, or use a smaller gauge wire like 44awg. Of course, then you're changing the character of the sound a bit, but you're already doing that by changing the dimensions of the coil, so... go for it!

 

[Kinkh]

Hmm - there got to be some magnet suppliers in the EU that will ship to you. I know of a couple of Chinese suppliers, but they usually want you to order 100 pieces.

I know of at least one pickup maker in Italy. You could ask him where to get some magnets. I hate to send people to the pickup makers forum because it's not a very fun scene over there, but he goes by Lt. Kojak. Or you could search that forum - I know there's a few other EU guys who hang there. Or post a question, but I'd search first.

Pickup Makers - Music Electronics Forum



I'm going to warn you, and I'm not trying to be hard on you: a major part of pickup making is building your mechanical skills. You have to learn them. Honestly, just looking at your work, you're on the right track. It looks like you have more mechanical skill than you think you do.

All that being said, you don't need a ton of tools right away.

It looks like you have access to a 3D printer - you can a lot with just that. I wish I had one myself!

I used to make my bobbins out of paper. (Sometimes I still do) Here's a picture of some I made for my multi-coil neodymium sidewinder. Don't ask me about it - haha that was a very dark time for me!

View attachment 4591557

More cardboard:

View attachment 4591558

These were my best cardboard bobbins - I actually had these laser cut.

View attachment 4591559

Or you could do as I suggested earlier and try using PCBs. You can order PCB's from JLCPCB with the holes drilled in them. You'd have to press fit the poles. You'd also have to design the PCB, but there's cheap software to do it. EasyEDA is free. JLCPCB is in China and their turnaround is quick and their shipping to the US is fast. You could probably order 20 bobbins for $20USD.

Make the bobbins taller.

Thanks for the encouragement and all the good tips. Gonna check out that other forum definitely.
Judging from the pics, looks like paper is now going to be on my list of possibilities

The bobbins that I have now were made from PCBs I designed and ordered at JLC, so the PCB part is no problem, I just need a better centre column, whatever it may end up being in the end.
JLC also has a rather cheap 3D printing service (they do PA12 nylon and other resins). So I have some ideas for the bobbins, PCBs and various combinations for now

I could try making them taller, but these ones were the max height that could fit given my other design requirements.

Yup, or use a smaller gauge wire like 44awg. Of course, then you're changing the character of the sound a bit, but you're already doing that by changing the dimensions of the coil, so... go for it!

Unlikely for now, as I still have a roll of about 5kg of 43AWG wire to spend

 

[Bruce Johnson]

If you haven't seen it, there's a thread going on over in the Pickups section, talking heavily about the basics of how a magnetic pickup works, and trying to describe it in a simple form. A lot of good posts.

Video Explaining Magnetic Pickups Simply

Here's my entry in the analogy contest:

A cup of coffee. Sitting there, the coffee is stationary, no ripples or flowing around. The cup is the magnet; the coffee is the magnetic field. The cup holds the coffee in that place, and in that shape. The shape and volume of the cup determines the shape and volume of the coffee. If the cup wasn't there, the coffee would spill out all over the desk and flow away.

Set a stirring stick down into the coffee, gently, and lean it against the side of the cup. The stick is the coil. It's sitting in there, surrounded by the coffee. But, as long as the coffee has no motion flowing around, the stick sits there and doesn't move.

Hold a spoon hanging down above the coffee cup. The spoon is the string. Hold the spoon above the coffee, swing it back and forth, and nothing happens. The coffee doesn't move. Slowly lower the spoon down into the middle of the cup, into the coffee. As long as you hold the spoon still, the coffee stays still, and the stick stays still.

Now, start swishing the spoon back and forth. The coffee starts flowing around, creating waves and ripples. The coffee is all still contained within the cup, but the spoon is pushing it around, making it move. All within that volume, established by the cup.

When the coffee starts moving back and forth in waves, it pushes the stick around. It moves back and forth, somewhat copying the movement of the spoon. There may be some delay in the movement, or some funny reverse movement caused by the waves sloshing around and bouncing off the walls of the cup. And the amplitude matters; the more vigorously you swish the spoon, the more vigorous the motion of the stick.

The spoon is transferring energy and motion to the stick, through the coffee. The stick represents the coil, and the movement of the stick represents the electrical signal going down the wire out of the pickup.

That's the analogy that works for me in defining the relationship between the components of a magnetic pickup. The magnetic field is a ball of fluid that can be pushed all around. The magnet is the container that holds the ball of fluid into a defined volume and shape. The coil is partly or fully immersed in the ball of fluid. When you stick the string into the ball of fluid and wiggle it, the fluid (the magnetic field) transfers some of that motion to the coil. Which squeezes it and causes it to squirt some electrical current out through its wire.

To me, the argument about whether the field of the magnet, or the field of the string is causing the signal in the coil is kind of meaningless. It's the same ball of fluid. When the spoon starts stirring, does that mean that the moving coffee now is part of the spoon? While the stationary coffee is still part of the cup? If you picture the magnetic field as a ball of fluid, then it doesn't make sense to divide it that way. The cup is containing it, so that the spoon can make it move. Whose coffee is it?

1. The size of the magnet, and the shape of the magnet determine the shape and density of the field. How large and thick that ball of fluid is.
2. The positions of the coil and the string within the field determine how efficiently the movement is transferred from one to the other through the field.
3. The amplitude of the string's motion and the number of turns in the coil are the primary things that determine the amplitude (level) of the electrical signal out the coil's wire. But the level also depends on 1 & 2 above.
4. The electrical characteristics of the coil (resistance, inductance, and capacitance) then shape the frequency curve of the electrical signal; how the level changes through the frequency range.

Those are the basics that I use to design pickups.

 

[Matt Liebenau]

The OP revised his video and submitted it for more abuse… errrr… critique.


Revised Video Explaining Magnetic Pickups Simply

 

[Freekmagnet]

The OP revised his video and submitted it for more abuse… errrr… critique.


Revised Video Explaining Magnetic Pickups Simply

Yeah, I kinda feel bad for that guy. I know he had the most genuine intentions going into producing that video, and all he’s getting in return is tons of abuse for his hard work.

 

[41hzthunder]

I'm pretty sure every third person knows more than me about the physics of pickups. Just scatterwind to the right resistance and there's your output. Right?

 

[Honkey tonk]

Ferromagnetic, paramagnetic and Diamagnetic, seems like most pickups only focus on first two .
L)

 

[Bruce Johnson]

Of course, my cup-o-coffee analogy is an analogy; it's a simplified version of what's going on inside a pickup. The main point is to show how the magnetic field behaves like a fluid. Movement of the string pushes it around, and those waves of sloshing cause the pulsing current in the wire of the coil.

Two more thing you can add to this mental image, to better describe what's going on:

First, the coffee isn't all in the cup. The inside of the cup is filled with coffee, but there's an equal amount of coffee around the outside of the cup, floating in an approximately spherical cloud. Right up close to the wall of the cup, this floating coffee is a liquid, almost as dense as the coffee inside the cup. But this ball of floating coffee cloud gets thinner and less dense as it spreads out farther from the cup. It's a cloud that's liquid in the center, thinning out to gas at the outer edge. Somehow, the cup is keeping that cloud of floating semi-liquid coffee in place around it. Far out, man.

When you insert the spoon into the cloud and swing it back and forth, it can make the coffee slosh back and forth in waves. All of it, inside and outside the cup. If the spoon is just into the outer edge of the cloud, there won't be as much sloshing. Because the cloud is thin and almost a gas out there. If you swing the spoon deep in the cloud, real close to the cup, you get much more sloshing, because that's where the dense liquid is. Just don't hit the cup with the spoon!

Got that? Now picture the pickup's coil as a length of soft rubber tubing, which is wrapped around the outside of the cup. Most of it is inside the floating cloud of coffee, surrounded by mostly-liquid coffee. The two ends of the tubing go off...somewhere. The tubing is filled with water.

When the cloud of coffee starts sloshing around, because of the wiggling spoon, it squeezes the tubing. This makes the water inside the tubing squirt down the tubing....off to somewhere. Because the sloshing of the coffee is back and forth in waves, the water is pushed back and forth in the tubing in pulses. Approximately matching the sloshing movement of the coffee.

If you can picture all that, you can see how the major components of a magnetic pickup work together and affect each other.

• The amplitude of the sloshing of the coffee cloud depends on the amplitude of the swinging of the spoon, and how close the spoon gets to the cup.
• The amplitude of the pulsing of the water inside the tubing depends on how much tubing is inside the coffee cloud. More length and more wraps around the cup means more tubing gets squeezed, which pushes more water down the tube. And, the more of the turns of tubing are in tight against the cup, in the densest part of the coffee cloud, the stronger the squeeze. From the waves of coffee slamming against it. Caused by the spoon swishing the coffee.

That's a more complete analogy. I hope I didn't hurt your brain too much.

Note: When you dig deep into the physics, using liquid flow as an analogy for magnetic fields and electricity isn't completely accurate. I know that. But the analogy is fairly good at describing how they work together.

And you'll never look at your coffee the same way again.

 

[Kinkh]

Very interesting topic and also informative video. I can see how someone who's not into electronics might get a better understanding after watching.

If anybody is interested in a more "detailed" engineer/physicist approach to this topic, this might be an interesting read:

How Does a Pickup Really Work? — Lawing Musical Products

That guy also has some other interesting articles on electrical parameters of pickups and how they affect tone. Might be worth reading

 

[Bruce Johnson]

Very interesting topic and also informative video. I can see how someone who's not into electronics might get a better understanding after watching.

If anybody is interested in a more "detailed" engineer/physicist approach to this topic, this might be an interesting read:

How Does a Pickup Really Work? — Lawing Musical Products

That guy also has some other interesting articles on electrical parameters of pickups and how they affect tone. Might be worth reading

A quick note: I don't have any argument with what Dr Lawing says. That's a more detailed description of the physics that's going on.

In my Cup-O-Coffee analogy, the magnetic flux around the string that he talks about is the waves in the coffee from the moving spoon (the string). The coffee itself is the field from the magnet. So, yes, the waves are a different thing from coffee; they are energy and motion. And the waves cause the squeezing of the tube, etc. If the coffee doesn't have waves in it, the tube doesn't get squeezed.

The reason for my coffee analogy is to try to show the working relationship between the spoon, the coffee, the waves in the coffee, the cup and the coil of tubing.

I didn't want to make the analogy more messy by explaining what happens when you pull the cup away, while pouring some more coffee onto the swinging spoon, directing the splashing toward the coil of tubing.....That's what Dr Lawing is doing in that setup.

He's right that the waves in the coffee are what is transferring the motion to the tubing. The cup keeps the coffee contained in one location. Less to clean up.

 

[Kinkh]

A quick note: I don't have any argument with what Dr Lawing says. That's a more detailed description of the physics that's going on.

In my Cup-O-Coffee analogy, the magnetic flux around the string that he talks about is the waves in the coffee from the moving spoon (the string). The coffee itself is the field from the magnet. So, yes, the waves are a different thing from coffee; they are energy and motion. And the waves cause the squeezing of the tube, etc. If the coffee doesn't have waves in it, the tube doesn't get squeezed.

The reason for my coffee analogy is to try to show the working relationship between the spoon, the coffee, the waves in the coffee, the cup and the coil of tubing.

I didn't want to make the analogy more messy by explaining what happens when you pull the cup away, while pouring some more coffee onto the swinging spoon, directing the splashing toward the coil of tubing.....That's what Dr Lawing is doing in that setup.

He's right that the waves in the coffee are what is transferring the motion to the tubing. The cup keeps the coffee contained in one location. Less to clean up.

Don't get me wrong, I like your coffee analogy as well. And I'm not trying to dispute it or anything.

It's just that since this topic is being discussed now, I remembered Dr Lawing's text, and thought it might be an interesting read if someone wishes to delve further into the physics theory

 

[41hzthunder]

Very interesting topic and also informative video. I can see how someone who's not into electronics might get a better understanding after watching.

If anybody is interested in a more "detailed" engineer/physicist approach to this topic, this might be an interesting read:

How Does a Pickup Really Work? — Lawing Musical Products

That guy also has some other interesting articles on electrical parameters of pickups and how they affect tone. Might be worth reading

In the video on his site he places the zexcoil above a stock(ish) Strat pickup. This means his magnetless (is that a word?) coil is still emersed in the magnetic field of that Strat pickup. He hasn't adequately isolated the elements to support his claim. He could have magnetized the string from its ends and completely isolated the Zexcoil from any other field source.

I remember reading that copper has a loose electron structure, as does aluminum and silver. I recall that the flux in the magnetic field displaces the loose electrons and that is what is generating the signal. Aluminum does not have as loose a structure and that's why you don't see aluminum pickup coils. Silver has a looser structure than copper and would have a stronger signal, but is cost prohibitive. I think there are some pickup winders using silver.

What results is some characteristics that anyone who has wound more than a few pickups would recognize. 1. The stronger the magnetic field, the more signal you are going to get, if all other things are equal. 2. The amount of copper in the field will affect the output signal, which is different than the number of winds or resistance. Caveat: the parasitic capacitance can effect the perceived signal strength. 3. The magnetic field is operating as a whole, that is, from the North and South ends (think Gibson style humbuckers), not just the end of a pole facing the strings. There's implications for stacked humbuckers from this.

Great subject and starting point for newbies to winding!

 

[41hzthunder]

Just looked it up. Seymor Duncan makes the Zephyr pickup with silver coils. Price for three Strat pickups: $959. Ouch! Use a bigger magnet or more copper!

 

[Kinkh]

In the video on his site he places the zexcoil above a stock(ish) Strat pickup. This means his magnetless (is that a word?) coil is still emersed in the magnetic field of that Strat pickup. He hasn't adequately isolated the elements to support his claim. He could have magnetized the string from its ends and completely isolated the Zexcoil from any other field source.

If I remember correctly, steel and nickel (string material) can only be temporary magnetized, so he needs to "dip the strings" in the magnetic field of the Strat pickup every so often to keep the magnetisation constant. Otherwise you'd have pre magnetised strings to begin with.

But I do agree that the field lines from the permanent magnet go through the upper pickup as well - after all, the pole pieces have a higher permeability (magnetic conductance) than air, so it's natural that some of the magnet's filed would be diverted there. He should have shown/drawn a picture of that scenario as well I think.

I remember reading that copper has a loose electron structure, as does aluminum and silver. I recall that the flux in the magnetic field displaces the loose electrons and that is what is generating the signal. Aluminum does not have as loose a structure and that's why you don't see aluminum pickup coils. Silver has a looser structure than copper and would have a stronger signal, but is cost prohibitive. I think there are some pickup winders using silver.

The signal gets generated by a changing magnetic field going through a closed loop of conductive wire according to Faraday's law. The current/voltage (signal) is proportional to the number of magnetic filed lines encompassed in that loop and the number of turns that loop has. I'm not gonna post any fancy formulas, as it won't benefit the discussion

With that being said, you have a magnetic circuit consisting of a permanent magnet and magnetised strings. The filed lines form a loop that goes through: magnet->pole piece->string->back to the magnet via the path with the highest permeability (lowest magnetic resistance), whatever that path may be.
So one theory says that the when the strings move they modulate the static filed of the circuit, creating change, resulting in a signal.
The other theory disregards the static field of the magnet and focuses on the magnetised strung movement, which is a changing magnetic filed, which generates a signal once again.
In practice, they are one and the same, and shouldn't have much or any major decision making influence on how pickups are built.

That's as far as how the signal is generated. Different conductor materials will produce different electrical properties of the pickup coil, but they won't contribute to how the signal is generated. They will affect the tone for sure.
Silver it the best conductor, copper somewhere after that. Aluminium is a lot worse, so I'd reckon that's why aluminium wire isn't used for winding (I think it's only used in HV overhead power lines).

What results is some characteristics that anyone who has wound more than a few pickups would recognize. 1. The stronger the magnetic field, the more signal you are going to get, if all other things are equal. 2. The amount of copper in the field will affect the output signal, which is different than the number of winds or resistance. Caveat: the parasitic capacitance can effect the perceived signal strength. 3. The magnetic field is operating as a whole, that is, from the North and South ends (think Gibson style humbuckers), not just the end of a pole facing the strings. There's implications for stacked humbuckers from this.

Great subject and starting point for newbies to winding!

1. Of course. Because the string gets magnetized stronger and introduces a stronger change in the filed that goes through the coil.
2. Depends how you look at it. Only the turns that encompass the magnetic filed contribute to the output signal. So the geometry of the pickup (or any sensing coil in general) plays a mayor role in this. Resistance is meaningless in determining the output level - electrical parameters, aka tone, definitely matters.
3. Agree.

Sorry if I sound like a smart ass, but this is an interesting topic to me, and I don't get a chance to discuss with people about it.
Also, I may have forgotten some (hopefully minor) stuff about magnetic fields and materials since uni, so if I'm off somewhere, please do correct me

 

[41hzthunder]

[QUOTE="
2. Depends how you look at it. Only the turns that encompass the magnetic filed contribute to the output signal. So the geometry of the pickup (or any sensing coil in general) plays a mayor role in this. Resistance is meaningless in determining the output level - electrical parameters, aka tone, definitely matters.


Sorry if I sound like a smart ass, but this is an interesting topic to me, and I don't get a chance to discuss with people about it.
Also, I may have forgotten some (hopefully minor) stuff about magnetic fields and materials since uni, so if I'm off somewhere, please do correct me [/QUOTE]

My point on 2 was that a greater number of winds with 44 AWG are required to get to the same amount of copper as fewer winds of 42 AWG. This relates to the number of loose electrons that can be affected and, excluding capacitance and resistance, would determine when the signal is the same strength. Of course, resistance can decrease the signal and you might expect that more winds of 44 AWG are required, above an equal amount of copper. More winds creates more capacitance and tone changes.

I enjoy some smart ass discussion, within limits. Those limits are determined by the amount of caffiene or alcohol I'm enjoying. Its interesting to think of the string as a magnet. Indeed, if a string was a permanent magnet, you wouldn't need magnets in the pickup. But, remember the electric motor principle and how direction affects all of this. Flemings right hand rule says that motion is perpendicular to the direction (not flow! It doesn't flow, it exists.) of the magnetic field and the current is at a right angle to that. If the string is magnetized, what's the direction of the magnetic field? How strong is it at any point? What direction is it relative to the coil? Generally, pickups are designed with the North or South pole perpendicular to the string.

Hopefully, I don't sound more intellegent than I really am. I repeat that every third person I meet knows more than me.

 

[Kinkh]

My point on 2 was that a greater number of winds with 44 AWG are required to get to the same amount of copper as fewer winds of 42 AWG. This relates to the number of loose electrons that can be affected and, excluding capacitance and resistance, would determine when the signal is the same strength. Of course, resistance can decrease the signal and you might expect that more winds of 44 AWG are required, above an equal amount of copper. More winds creates more capacitance and tone changes.

I enjoy some smart ass discussion, within limits. Those limits are determined by the amount of caffiene or alcohol I'm enjoying. Its interesting to think of the string as a magnet. Indeed, if a string was a permanent magnet, you wouldn't need magnets in the pickup. But, remember the electric motor principle and how direction affects all of this. Flemings right hand rule says that motion is perpendicular to the direction (not flow! It doesn't flow, it exists.) of the magnetic field and the current is at a right angle to that. If the string is magnetized, what's the direction of the magnetic field? How strong is it at any point? What direction is it relative to the coil? Generally, pickups are designed with the North or South pole perpendicular to the string.

Hopefully, I don't sound more intellegent than I really am. I repeat that every third person I meet knows more than me.

Haha, that gave me some laughs, the alcohol and stuff

Agree totally on point 2 with you. I guess we mean the same thing, we just worded it differently.

Yeah, about the string magnetisation, ideally if you could only magnetise part of the string above the pickup in a way that the field is perpendicular to the pickup core. If those kind of strings could be made, we wouldn't need magnets for sure.

In reality the string is magnetised by the magnet in a much more complex way - we're talking 3D here, so the field is a vector with x, y, z components. And when it moves the sum of components that go through the pickup core are the ones that matter. But that's complex math analysis. Doesn't help much here. In practice we can just assume if you point a magnet north up below the string, the string gets magnetized in that direction only. And when vibrating, moves in that direction only. I'm pretty sure that's accurate enough for pickup makers and that's how they've been designing them form the start

I might have a paper on that somewhere, might be able to find it one day....