Mahavishnu

[KJung]

I was a huge Mahavishnu fan in college in the very early 70's and beyond. I did not care as much for the second incarnation of the group, although I became a huge fan of Jean Luc Ponty (and Ralph Armstrong) a few years later.

Listening to the first two Mahavishnu albums today, it is striking how contemporary they sound. The only thing that sounds dated is the tone of Rick Laird's bass (as well as some of the keyboard tones) but bass playing has progressed a lot since then. McLaughlin's guitar is pretty raggedy, but not unusual in the guitar world pre-EVH's influence on the guitar universe (for good or bad.)

Those Jan Hammer synth sounds are pretty rough to listen to these days.

+1 also that I moved on from the Mahavishnu pretty early on, but totally dug the Jean Luc Ponty thing with Ralphe. Fun to get to know Ralphe a bit when I lived in Detroit. He is JUST coming back onto the scene within the last few years. Pretty much left the business for 20 years to raise his kids. He is still BURNING on both DB and EB.

Those who didn't grow up with this music most likely have a hard time even imagining how 'mainstream' the fusion of the mid 70's to early 80's became. I remember seeing Jean Luc Ponty, Return to Forever (the Romantic Warrior band), of course, Weather Report in the early Jaco era with Badrena on percussion), etc. in 5K to 10K venues... SOLD OUT. It was just an amazing time to be an electric bassist, and even the more watered down 'pop jazz' of that era (Chuck Mangione, Spiro Gyra, Yellow Jackets... who were much more pop than the later version of that band with Mintzer, Larry Carlton, Lee Ritenour, etc.) was complex and fun to play.

The only other thing I experienced close to that excitement in the musician's community and among a somewhat mainstream audience was a decade later when Pat Metheny hit with the 'White Album'. That REALLY turned some heads, and was quite fresh and new at the time. I guess to a much smaller extent, the Flecktones seemed to bring something new to the genre when they hit 20 years ago or so, but by that time, music like could only fill very small venues of a few hundred versus the multi thousands of the glory years.

I would guess the vibe in the early 70's through late 70's was somewhat similar to Charlie Parker hitting a generation earlier (that kind of 'shock and awe' thing)

 

[JimK]

... although I became a huge fan of Jean Luc Ponty (and Ralph Armstrong) a few years later.

Listening to the first two Mahavishnu albums today, it is striking how contemporary they sound. The only thing that sounds dated is the tone of Rick Laird's bass (as well as some of the keyboard tones) but bass playing has progressed a lot since then.

IIRC, Dave Holland & Ponty were McLaughlin's 1st choices for his new group (what became the Mahavisnhu Orchestra)...Holland had other things goin' on (Miles?)...McLaughlin had a history wit Laird. Ponty declined & once McLaughlin heard The Flock with Goodman...it was over.

Those Jan Hammer synth sounds are pretty rough to listen to these days.

That's my biggest issue...to this day. I hated those synth tones/sounds back then...cheesy-Mattel Toy, IMO.
I felt a little vindicated after reading Terry Bozzio's comments regarding Missing Person's 2nd album, Rhyme & Reason (in Ken Scott's book)...Bozzio played electronic drums ('cause, I assume, it was the '80s...c'mon, get with the times! Acoustic drums? You're stuck in the past!).

Anyway, he sez hearing that album now makes it sound dated & cheap.

 

[JimK]

After wearing out at least three copies of Inner Mounting Flame back when it was new, pretty sure I can just channel every note without using any electronic playback at this point, allsimsayin'.

Good one!
I was just goin' add that me playing The Brandenburg Concertos is not an attempt to relive the 1700s...at least I don't think so.

Sorry for the abuse at your gym.

...just had my daily dose. Will say my inner-filter is pretty good at shutting most of it down.

 

[JimK]

Another thing-
Not sure if Tony Williams Lifetime has been mentioned.
1st 2 albums kill...unfortunately, the recording process sucked.

Full Moon is another cool '60s outfit that blended Jazz-Rock-R&B-Latin-Pop


Dave Holland appears on 2 tracks

 

[KJung]

Another thing-
Not sure if Tony Williams Lifetime has been mentioned.
1st 2 albums kill...unfortunately, the recording process sucked.

OK, another old guy 'back in the day' story (I'm on a roll!).

Back in the late 80's (I think... early 90's, not sure when Tony passed, but this was not that long before... still some ganja involved at that time, so might be a bit off on the timeline), I attended one of the big 4th of July celebrations under the Arch in St. Louis (which attracted over a million people over a three day period). In addition to the main stage acts they had secondary stages set up (they don't even to that any more!) for different genre's. They had a tiny little 'jazz' stage set up off the beaten path on the Arch grounds.

So, there I am, sitting in front of this little stage, with maybe 10 other people, as THOUSANDS of people walked by on one of the walkways, listening to Tony Williams and his band just KILLING. No one cared at that point. It was one of the saddest things I've ever experienced as a player (other than seeing the later day Moody Blues live with Kenny G as an opening act, but that is a totally different universe of sadness).

Anyway, sad in some ways when a player 'outlives his relevancy' when he/she was once at the center of it all.

 

[Richland123]

In the early 80s, I had the pleasure of seeing Allan Holdsworth (guitar), Jeff Berlin (bass), and I believe it was Chad Wackerman (drums) at The Decade in Pittsburgh, PA. This was to promote Allan's I.O.U. album and they called the group I.O.U. The venue was small and very up close and personal like a few feet from the stage. My lead guitarist at the time went with me and he was pretty amazing himself. Needless to say, we were totally blown away and it was one of those moments when you question how good you are as a player since they were in a different league.

Here is a live video from that era but Jeff Berlin was not in the group at this time.

 

[KJung]

In the early 80s, I had the pleasure of seeing Allan Holdsworth (guitar), Jeff Berlin (bass), and I believe it was Chad Wackerman (drums) at The Decade in Pittsburgh, PA. This was to promote Allan's I.O.U. album and they called the group I.O.U. The venue was small and very up close and personal like a few feet from the stage. My lead guitarist at the time went with me and he was pretty amazing himself. Needless to say, we were totally blown away and it was one of those moments when you question how good you are as a player since they were in a different league.

Saw Allan and Chad play in a tiny little club (75 seater) in Detroit a couple of years ago. Still sounds the same He is a true journeyman of that genre. I don't think he gives a darn if there is even anyone there. Still playing exactly the same way. Famous story about Eddie Van Halen trying to 'produce' Allan to be a little more 'radio friendly' in the 90's or whatever, and Allan just kept 'doing his thing'. Nothing wrong with that.

Wackerman looks like he's still 19 years old.... amazing. Saw him with Zappa in the quad at Washington University WAY back when.

 

[Richland123]

Allan Holdsworth and Eddie Van Halen Jam 1983



The recording quality is rough but you get the idea.

 

[Passinwind]

Good one!
I was just goin' add that me playing The Brandenburg Concertos is not an attempt to relive the 1700s...at least I don't think so.

Not unless you were there.

 

[jerry]

Late Xmas gift alert-
Ken Scott's book has some nice anecdotes about recording the Mahavishnu Orchestra & Billy Cobham's solo albums (Spectrum & Crosswinds).
http://www.amazon.com/Abbey-Road-Zi...UTF8&qid=1355949372&sr=1-1&keywords=ken+scott

+1, I dug that book, as a liner note junkie I always remembered Ken Scott's name being on so many of my favorite albums.

 

[jerry]

I was just listening to the recently released live tracks that were left off the original Mahavishnu live album and I was thinking how much I dug when keyboard players only had a mini moog and a Rhodes or Wurlitzer with a phaser or ring modulater to get their sound......used up less sonic space than later in the 70's and 80's when the keyboards just ate up all the room, especially after midi.

 

[Richland123]

I was just listening to the recently released live tracks that were left off the original Mahavishnu live album and I was thinking how much I dug when keyboard players only had a mini moog and a Rhodes or Wurlitzer with a phaser or ring modulater to get their sound......used up less sonic space than later in the 70's and 80's when the keyboards just ate up all the room, especially after midi.

Speaking of that Fender Rhodes sound. I always enjoyed Brian Auger's playing like he did on Straight Ahead.

 

[Passinwind]

That's my biggest issue...to this day. I hated those synth tones/sounds back then...cheesy-Mattel Toy, IMO.

I worked as a tech in the ARP factory right in the middle of that era, so you can blame me. If I never hear another Omni or String Ensemble it'll be way too soon. Zawinul and the guy in Ponty's band, Allan Zavod, managed to get some nice synth sounds, but for the most part that and the Rhodes define "dated" to me in the context of fusion. But I still do love the energy and many of the tunes, for sure.

Seeing guys like Chick and George Duke slide over to a grand piano for a tune or two was a huge eye opener for me back then, really, since fusion was my gateway to more traditional jazz, as it was for so many people my age. For that I will be forever thankful.

OTOH, Jan Hammer was a poster child for wretched excess IMHO -- not that there's anything wrong with wretched excess of course.

 

[Lonesomedave]

.... OTOH, Jan Hammer was a poster child for wretched excess IMHO -- not that there's anything wrong with wretched excess of course.

say what you want about jan hammer...and plenty of guys in my college would be quick to point out that he and zawinul were "not nearly as good" as chick corea....i think hammer's playing was very good, and i think it went very well with the early Mahavishnu albums

 

[Passinwind]

say what you want about jan hammer...and plenty of guys in my college would be quick to point out that he and zawinul were "not nearly as good" as chick corea....i think hammer's playing was very good, and i think it went very well with the early Mahavishnu albums

Yep, wouldn't have it any other way.

I thought Zawinul was amazing pre-WR though.

 

[KJung]

I worked as a tech in the ARP factory right in the middle of that era, so you can blame me. If I never hear another Omni or String Ensemble it'll be way too soon. Zawinul and the guy in Ponty's band, Allan Zavod, managed to get some nice synth sounds, but for the most part that and the Rhodes define "dated" to me in the context of fusion. But I still do love the energy and many of the tunes, for sure.

Seeing guys like Chick and George Duke slide over to a grand piano for a tune or two was a huge eye opener for me back then, really, since fusion was my gateway to more traditional jazz, as it was for so many people my age. For that I will be forever thankful.

OTOH, Jan Hammer was a poster child for wretched excess IMHO -- not that there's anything wrong with wretched excess of course.

There are some pretty funny liner notes from Chick for that 'first Electrik Band' gig CD that was bootleg for a long time and then put out by Chick. He basically apologizes for the synth excess on that recording Pretty funny to read it. Basically, 'I don't really know what I was thinking, but I wish I hadn't done it'

That disc (of course, much later than the early fusion stuff we are talking about) was famous for I believe the first performance of 'Got a Match?' before it even had a name, if I remember correctly. That band turned some heads for the first album or two, before the hate started

+1 on that classic 70's fusion acting as a gateway to more traditional jazz for many of us who were young players of that era. I guess the prog thing worked the same way with classical music, since Yes, etc. opened my eyes to Stravinsky, Bach, etc. in a similar way back then.

 

[KJung]

OTOH, Jan Hammer was a poster child for wretched excess IMHO -- not that there's anything wrong with wretched excess of course.

Another 'back in the day' story about wretched excess in the later days of fusion. When the Electrik Band (I think that is how you spell it... there is a 'k' in there somewhere) did their first tour, which pretty much defined the end of that era as a commercial entity, Scott Henderson was on guitar. Since all of us in St. Louis knew Weckl a bit, we all trudged down to the Symphony Hall to see the concert. It was an amazing night... Wayne Shorter opened, with Al Dimeola doing a solo acoustic set as the second act, then Chick and the 'new' band of blazers.

So, Henderson has this rack of effects for his guitar as big as a refrigerator (literally), and it sounded just like hell.... like a bad phase shifter with too much delay all night... you remember that awful era of guitar effects.

To the point.... for the encore, they brought Dimeola out (nice touch) to play 'Spain' with the guys. So, Al plugs a Les Paul directly into a Fender amp (a little one, like a Princeton Reverb or Champ or something), and played the first note, and it was hilarous. It was the most massive, fat, beautiful articulate guitar tone you ever heard. Everyone went nuts. I don't think the irony was clear to Henderson Pretty funny if you were there.

 

[Roscoe East]

Throw in...
Gong
...[snip]...
Some of these may be considered Prog though...

Yes, all prog.

Just to clarify: Early Gong, when Daevid Allen was in the band, was certainly archetypal Canterbury Scene prog (which in a way makes it rather distinctly different from the more common Yes/Genesis/King Crimson school of prog-rock )

...but by the mid-70s after Pierre Moerlin had assumed the reigns of the band, Gong was definitely a full-on jazz-rock fusion band. Albums like Gazeuse! (aka Expresso) and Time Is The Key have way more in common with the music of Brand X, Mahavishnu Orchestra, and Return To Forever than they do with Pink Floyd or Emerson Lake & Palmer.

 

[Richland123]

+1 on that classic 70's fusion acting as a gateway to more traditional jazz for many of us who were young players of that era. I guess the prog thing worked the same way with classical music, since Yes, etc. opened my eyes to Stravinsky, Bach, etc. in a similar way back then.

Same with Emerson, Lake, and Palmer; especially with their Pictures At An Exhibition album.

So, Henderson has this rack of effects for his guitar as big as a refrigerator (literally), and it sounded just like hell.... like a bad phase shifter with too much delay all night... you remember that awful era of guitar effects.

John Scofield went in that way too many effects mode as well. I saw him live a about twelve years ago and he bored the audience to the point where people were falling asleep with his spacey overloaded guitar effects where you could not distinguish the notes he was playing and it was lots of slow music.

On a side note, my current drummer was at Berklee College of Music the same time John Scofield was there and he said he was a fantastic player back then. He also had Greg Hawkes and Elliot Easton as classmates before they formed The Cars and he said they were both incredible players as well.

 

[eban3]

My introduction to Mahavishu was a live show from this tour ...blew my head off