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Mahjong - Shorter - C Section

Bass Momma

Bass Momma

Dec 25, 2017
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799
#1
I'd be grateful for any guidance to soloing over the C section of Shorter's Mahjong.
The chords: D7#9 / Eb-7 Ab7 / DbM9 / Db-7 Gb7

With my primitive understanding of modal jazz I've figured out modal approaches to the A and B sections (stealing shamelessly from Shorter's lines) but can't see that for the C section. Does you go for the changes, and hit the ii-Vs? That is, play that section vertically, and the rest horizontally?

Shorter is amazing - he uses really simple approaches to achieve something beautifully complex.
 
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#2
Bass Momma said:
I'd be grateful for any guidance to soloing over the C section of Shorter's Mahjong.
The chords: D7#9 / Eb-7 Ab7 / DbM9 / Db-7 Gb7

With my primitive understanding of modal jazz I've figured out modal approaches to the A and B sections (stealing shamelessly from Shorter's lines) but can't see that for the C section. Does you go for the changes, and hit the ii-Vs? That is, play that section vertically, and the rest horizontally?

Shorter is amazing - he uses really simple approaches to achieve something beautifully complex.
Click to expand...
I haven't looked this song over, although I absolutely love this tune. One of my favorite Shorter compositions. I'd always planned on going through it, but never did. Hopefully you get some useful answers. There is probably a way to get around all that stuff that's not as obvious, where it floats from the first 2 measures into the the next set of 2. Hard to describe in words. You will probably need to be familiar with half/whole diminished scales along with the melodic minor

Your best bet is to google responses from the saxophone forums. I'm sure there is a ton of stuff there, since those guys have probably been analyzing this song since it was released. But I don't think it's gonna be an easy play.
 
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#3
Spin Doctor said:
I haven't looked this song over, although I absolutely love this tune. One of my favorite Shorter compositions. I'd always planned on going through it, but never did. Hopefully you get some useful answers. There is probably a way to get around all that stuff that's not as obvious, where it floats from the first 2 measures into the the next set of 2. Hard to describe in words. You will probably need to be familiar with half/whole diminished scales along with the melodic minor

Your best bet is to google responses from the saxophone forums. I'm sure there is a ton of stuff there, since those guys have probably been analyzing this song since it was released. But I don't think it's gonna be an easy play.
Click to expand...

The melodic minor is one of my favorites. Yes, I do know the HW diminished scales, but really in terms of walking - hadn't thought of it here. I'll go have a fiddle around!
 
#4
I would go with the F Minor pentatonic for the first 3 bars then move down a whole step for the 2nd II-V. Easy ;-)

The F minor penta fits pretty much everywhere in the tune. If you go that way, make sure to hit those Gb in the C section.
 
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#6
Spin Doctor said:
I knew there was some easy way to get at it. Why does that work?
Click to expand...
It's called horizontal improv. The whole tune is based on Fsus. Because the minor third is a whole step away from the perfect fourth it is possible to play minor over those sus4 chords. There is many common tones over the chords when playing the F minor penta scale. Of course you can move around a little bit more but the idea to play the same scale over an entire song or section to help develop nice melodies and motifs and most important hear and sing what you play. Can't go wrong with 5 notes only ;-)
 
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#7
Groove Master said:
It's called horizontal improv. The whole tune is based on Fsus. Because the minor third is a whole step away from the perfect fourth it is possible to play minor over those sus4 chords. There is many common tones over the chords when playing the F minor penta scale. Of course you can move around a little bit more but the idea to play the same scale over an entire song or section to help develop nice melodies and motifs and most important hear and sing what you play. Can't go wrong with 5 notes only ;-)
Click to expand...
This is genius...
 
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#9
Bass Momma said:
Which is why we have 5 fingers, right? :bassist:;)
I've been working hard on playing the changes in soloing, so this feels quite astonishingly free. Love how music keeps giving new discoveries. (Even when my head explodes!)
Click to expand...
Horizontal Improvisation is an idea I'd never heard of before, so I did some looking around. I saw a lot of comments that specifically said it was a more free and fun way to improvise. And I saw a couple of instructors say that strict vertical improv is exactly what you DON'T want to do because it tends to sound disconnected. So I guess the best players combine the two in some way.

This is a concept that I plan to explore deeply. Thanks for bringing this up. This is the kind of stuff I like to talk about.
 
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#10
Spin Doctor said:
This is genius...
Click to expand...
Haha thanks but it is only common sense. Especially for us bass players. It makes difficult to play all the changes, scales, arpeggios, chromaticism without facing the hard part of fingerings and moves on the bass that take us away from making music... So this a way I teach improv that gives great results really fast
 
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#11
Bass Momma said:
Which is why we have 5 fingers, right? :bassist:;)
I've been working hard on playing the changes in soloing, so this feels quite astonishingly free. Love how music keeps giving new discoveries. (Even when my head explodes!)
Click to expand...
Well the thing with those 5 notes from the pentatonic is to skip the half-steps within a scale. Those half-steps tend to resolve melodically and harmonically. So by avoiding them, the sound is more open. That is why the use of the pentatonic scale is so fun and easy to use.

Check out the Bergonzi book on pentatonics. Great stuff !!
 
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#12
Groove Master said:
Haha thanks but it is only common sense. Especially for us bass players. It makes difficult to play all the changes, scales, arpeggios, chromaticism without facing the hard part of fingerings and moves on the bass that take us away from making music... So this a way I teach improv that gives great results really fast
Click to expand...
Okay so where's your book teaching this stuff LOL. You can sign me up for a copy
 
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