Man shot reaching for license.

[skychief]

(clip)
I may not live in the US and views probably differ per nation in this world. But this for me is another reason why the whole 2nd amendment (right?) is a bad idea. That is a whole different subject, but I believe it's closely related to this.

Indeed, that is a whole different subject. I disagree that it (the 2nd amendment) had anything to do whatsoever in this incident.
The cop was frightened and in the heat of the moment, made some incredibly bad judgement calls.

How does the 2nd amendment have any bearing on his actions and lack of judgement?

 

[ComposedFiend]

Indeed, that is a whole different subject. I disagree that it (the 2nd amendment) had anything to do whatsoever in this incident.
The cop was frightened and in the heat of the moment, made some incredibly bad judgement calls.

How does the 2nd amendment have any bearing on his actions and lack of judgement?

This is ofcourse merely my humble opinion but I believe that cops in, lets take the Netherlands (where I live), are less likely to assume someone will pull a gun out of their pocket. Simply because there are less firearms and stricter rules about owning and transporting them.

 

[skychief]

This is ofcourse merely my humble opinion but I believe that cops in, lets take the Netherlands (where I live), are less likely to assume someone will pull a gun out of their pocket. Simply because there are less firearms and stricter rules about owning and transporting them.

That may be true, but here in the states, police must abide by certain protocols before using deadly force. They are trained to assess the threat. They are trained to determine if the suspect is armed or not. Clearly this cop did neither. He panicked. He was unprepared (emotionally) for the job he was doing.

I would presume Dutch police have similar protocols; am I wrong?

 

[aborgman]

Put a police uniform on and go into the worst areas of your city and see how free of fear you are.

2013 had the “Lowest Level of Law Enforcement Fatalities in Six Decades” and the fewest officers killed by firearms since 1887 according to the National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund.

 

[skychief]

Yet another case of some ******* cop abusing his power, makes me sick. Yet I have no faith in the justice system to do anything about this. If this happened in Europe on the other hand......

Not to be argumentative, but I just didnt see it that way. When I watched the video, I see a frightened cop who's unsure of the situation he's in, unsure of his surroundings, and unsure of his own ability to assess them.

He panicked. That's what I see in the video.

edit: spelling

 

[ComposedFiend]

That may be true, but here in the states, police must abide by certain protocols before using deadly force. They are trained to assess the threat. They are trained to determine if the suspect is armed or not. Clearly this cop did neither. He panicked. He was unprepared (emotionally) for the job he was doing.

I would presume Dutch police have similar protocols; am I wrong?

They probably do I imagine. But here, only government personnel, hunters, and those two people that like to go to the shooting range every now and then have firearms. And ofcourse some illegal weapons are owned by certain individuals. But the thought of random people being able to grab a quite lethal firearm if they don't like you scares me. I can only imagine it does the same to policeofficers since they are people you traditionally only like when you don't have to deal with them.

Ps. I enjoy that we are able to have a proper discussion with valid arguments, in such a nice and civilized way. Too much these days that's not possible anymore.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

Not to be argumentative, but I just didnt see it that way. When I watched the video, I see a frightened cop who's unsure of the situation he's in, unsure of his surroundings, and unsure of his own ability to assess them.

He panicked. That's what I see in the video.

edit: spelling

Being a cop is the only profession where the practitioner supposedly panics, kills innocent people and usually gets to keep his job. This is so because the people who usually die lives' are not valued by the majority of society.

 

[PortlandBass77]

Not to be argumentative, but I just didnt see it that way. When I watched the video, I see a frightened cop who's unsure of the situation he's in, unsure of his surroundings, and unsure of his own ability to assess them.

He panicked. That's what I see in the video.

edit: spelling

How do you see it that way? He shot wayyyyyyyyyyyyy too soon. The cop demanded ID, the man reached into his car to grab it and the cop shot him immediately.

 

[1958Bassman]

2013 had the “Lowest Level of Law Enforcement Fatalities in Six Decades” and the fewest officers killed by firearms since 1887 according to the National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund.

Nationally, I believe it but here in Milwaukee, they have been targeted recently. They have been shot at while on other calls, gathering information.

 

[skychief]

How do you see it that way? He shot wayyyyyyyyyyyyy too soon. The cop demanded ID, the man reached into his car to grab it and the cop shot him immediately.

Exactly. We're on the same page here. I stand by the assertion the cop panicked. You will see this word repeatedly when the case comes to trial. The video clearly indicates it, and I'm certain the defense attorney will use it in the cops defense; Clearly, the cop was at fault... and has no business wearing a badge as an officer of the law.. He clearly lacks the discipline or the fortitude to carry out his assigned task. I agree fully.

But the question posed to a jury will be: DID THE COP WILLFULLY CAUSE HARM TO THE DEFENDANT?

I doubt it. And the juries verdict will (should) indicate it.

Time will tell.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

Exactly. We're on the same page here. I stand by the assertion the cop panicked. You will see this word repeatedly when the case comes to trial. The video clearly indicates it, and I'm certain the defense attorney will use it in the cops defense; Clearly, the cop was at fault... and has no business wearing a badge as an officer of the law.. He clearly lacks the discipline or the fortitude to carry out his assigned task. I agree fully.

But the question posed to a jury will be: DID THE COP WILLFULLY CAUSE HARM TO THE DEFENDANT?

I doubt it. And the juries verdict will (should) indicate it.

Time will tell.

You cannot shoot at someone and not want to cause harm to that person. Given the history of prosecutions of police shooting black men, I would not be shocked if the policeman were acquitted, but such an acquittal would reaffirm the total lack faith that many in this country have regarding the U.S. Justice system.

 

[skychief]

You cannot shoot at someone and not want to cause harm to that person. Given the history of prosecutions of police shooting black men, I would not be shocked if the policeman were acquitted, but such an acquittal would reaffirm the total lack faith that many in this country have regarding the U.S. Justice system.

Ahh... the RACE CARD. Well played, my padiwan.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

Ahh... the RACE CARD. Well played, my padiwan.

Very well, the whole race card notion is one of, if not the most stupid ideas in public discourse. The percentage of these cases involving black victims is overwhelming. To pretend race does not matter in any way is silly. To pretend that many have no faith in the system because of racial issues is silly. If using that term helps you deal with life, I guess you will use it. I have been in this situation too many times to waste any more of my time here. I can read ten thousand other sights for politics. I will go back gear and music talk now.

 

[aborgman]

Nationally, I believe it but here in Milwaukee, they have been targeted recently. They have been shot at while on other calls, gathering information.

The City of Milwaukee PD hasn't had an officer killed in the line of duty since 1996 and has only had 61 officers killed since 1884.

Milwaukee peak year for officer deaths in the line of duty was 1917 when 9 officers were killed in a bomb blast. Other than 1917 there have only been 2 years with more than 2 officer deaths. 1973 and 1974 both had 3 officer deaths.

Milwaukee line of duty deaths by decade:

2010-present: 0
2001-2010: 0
1991-2000: 3
1981-1990: 10
1971-1980: 10
1961-1970: 6
1951-1960: 2
1941-1950: 4
1931-1940: 6
1921-1930: 5
1911-1920: 10
1901-1910: 3
1891-1900: 1
pre 1891: 1

You'll notice a couple decades stand out...

 

[smeet]

Not to be argumentative, but I just didnt see it that way. When I watched the video, I see a frightened cop who's unsure of the situation he's in, unsure of his surroundings, and unsure of his own ability to assess them.

Well, I am 100% sure of his ability to assess them. He is an idiot, and even if he didn't "willfully" hurt the guy, he pulled out a gun and pointed it at him instead of yelling a warning. Or shooting a warning shot. Or taking cover behind his car. Or retreating and calling for backup. Or Any-effing-thing that even a non-trained civilian like myself might have done.

Ahh... the RACE CARD. Well played, my padiwan.

Would you like to postulate on what the cop's reaction might have been if it was a white guy in the car? We will never know for sure, but I think we all can hazard a pretty damn good guess.

He also lied multiple times.
He said the guy "dove into the car". No, he reached in, not super slowly, but not by ANY means a dive.
He said he pulled the guy over. No, the guy was out of his car by the time the cop got there.
He said the guy jumped out of his car as soon as the cop got there. No. No. No. It's on videotape. That is NOT what happened.
I think he also said he shouted a warning before shooting, which I don't think he did. He shouted warnings as and after he shot.

I don't know what I think of the individual cop, who to my eye was obviously scared of black males and not ready to be a cop. But he was given a badge and a gun, and permission to use them. I blame the system that somehow deemed this guy to be ready to be alone in a patrol car with a gun.

 

[skychief]

Well, I am 100% sure of his ability to assess them. He is an idiot, and even if he didn't "willfully" hurt the guy, he pulled out a gun and pointed it at him instead of yelling a warning. Or shooting a warning shot. Or taking cover behind his car. Or retreating and calling for backup. Or Any-effing-thing that even a non-trained civilian like myself might have done.


Would you like to postulate on what the cop's reaction might have been if it was a white guy in the car? We will never know for sure, but I think we all can hazard a pretty damn good guess.

I don't know what I think of the individual cop, who to my eye was obviously scared of black males and not ready to be a cop. But he was given a badge and a gun, and permission to use them. I blame the system that somehow deemed this guy to be ready to be alone in a patrol car with a gun.

First, Police dont fire warning shots. That's just stuff from the movies. Agreed, the cop totally panicked and violated all protocol in his duties as an officer of the law.

Secondly, I have no idea how the cop would have reacted had the guy (that was shot) been white. And neither do you. Or any other observer, for that matter. Only the cop knows the answer to that question.

And your third assertion I would agree with if you left out the words of black males. He may or may not be scared of black males; but to assume he is afraid of black males simply because he is white, is wrong. Clearly he was scared and not ready to be a cop.

That was the point I was trying to make.

 

[bluesblaster]

It would be interesting to know how long he had been a police officer.

 

[smeet]

First, Police dont fire warning shots. That's just stuff from the movies.

OK, I didn't know that.

Secondly, I have no idea how the cop would have reacted had the guy (that was shot) been white. And neither do you. Or any other observer, for that matter. Only the cop knows the answer to that question.

Right, I already admitted that I don't know for sure. But I have enough understanding and experience to have an opinion. Yes, it's an assumption. It's not always wrong to make an assumption. I'm basing it on the way I have seen many act, and on how this cop acted. Do you think he would shoot *everybody* that reached into their car a little too fast? I don't, and I think you are being naive if you believe that. Substitute a little old white lady in that situation. Would he have acted the same way? I think not. Race and gender may not have been the primary reason for his fear, but I feel strongly that it was a part of it.

And your third assertion I would agree with if you left out the words of black males. He may or may not be scared of black males; but to assume he is afraid of black males simply because he is white, is wrong. Clearly he was scared and not ready to be a cop.

Yes, I am making an assumption. It's clearly not admissible in court, but it's borne out by my experiences with law enforcement, and those of many many other non-white males in this country. Sorry, but those kinds of things just don't happen very much when the "suspect" is white. I'm not going to be on this cop's jury, and I don't want to prosecute him. I make the assumption because it may someday save my life when I have to act better and less threatening than a white guy would in the same situation.

And by the way, I don't make my assumptions simply because the officer is white. He is also the type of person that wants to be a law enforcement officer (another bias of mine, again from life experience). He is also an officer whose image I watched on youtube as he shot a guy who I would not have regarded as threatening, unless I were afraid for some reason other than the guy's actions. In this case there wasn't much information except the guy's appearance, and race is a big part of that.

That was the point I was trying to make.

We each have our unique experiences, and our biases are derived from them. You have your point of view and I have mine. Nobody lives without bias, and it would be foolish to do so. Law enforcement officers have their biases, and based on my life experience, I have my own biases about law enforcement officers.

 

[1958Bassman]

The City of Milwaukee PD hasn't had an officer killed in the line of duty since 1996 and has only had 61 officers killed since 1884.

Milwaukee peak year for officer deaths in the line of duty was 1917 when 9 officers were killed in a bomb blast. Other than 1917 there have only been 2 years with more than 2 officer deaths. 1973 and 1974 both had 3 officer deaths.

Milwaukee line of duty deaths by decade:

2010-present: 0
2001-2010: 0
1991-2000: 3
1981-1990: 10
1971-1980: 10
1961-1970: 6
1951-1960: 2
1941-1950: 4
1931-1940: 6
1921-1930: 5
1911-1920: 10
1901-1910: 3
1891-1900: 1
pre 1891: 1

You'll notice a couple decades stand out...

Kill

Indeed, that is a whole different subject. I disagree that it (the 2nd amendment) had anything to do whatsoever in this incident.
The cop was frightened and in the heat of the moment, made some incredibly bad judgement calls.

How does the 2nd amendment have any bearing on his actions and lack of judgement?

ed, no. Shot, definitely. Several people have intentionally crashed into squad cars/SUVs, too.

The 2nd Amendment has no bearing on his actions, but police are trained to be prepared for people with weapons. The problem I see in this video are:

It doesn't show the whole time of engagement, AFAIK. I would think the officer would light him up and tell him to wait in his vehicle. If he was already out, he could have commanded him to get in and wait, or if he really wanted to keep the driver from diving in and grabbing anything, he could have led him to the front or rear. Then, if he wanted the license, he could have been in a more protected position.

If he had called the truck's plate in before he engaged the driver, he would/might have known if the truck was legal, if the driver has any wants/warrants, etc.

It seems that the officer moved too fast to be thorough and safe.

 

[1958Bassman]

Here's what we have going on-

Link Removed