• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Markbass Amp repair?

#161
Just a reality check: 1) Anyone who thinks TB is good sample base for assuming the reliability/repair satisfaction of a brand is just plain daft. 2) Replacement boards will be more expensive than incorporated in new production but should be representative of original cost.
The fact that anyone would not supply schematics is disturbing to me personally, but I've been repairing for 40 + years. It disturbs me more that after a lot of pressure the schematics finally supplied were incomplete/useless. This indicates a bigger problem (thinking landfill here) to me personally. Disagree if you wish, I don't care. These are just my views after years in repair and manufacture.
 
#162
B-string said:
1) Anyone who thinks TB is good sample base for assuming the reliability/repair satisfaction of a brand is just plain daft.
Click to expand...
agreed
B-string said:
2) Replacement boards will be more expensive than incorporated in new production but should be representative of original cost.
Click to expand...
Not really ...you order boards based on a minimum or a price break taking into account the possibility that repairs/replacements will be necessary.
B-string said:
The fact that anyone would not supply schematics is disturbing to me personally, but I've been repairing for 40 + years. It disturbs me more that after a lot of pressure the schematics finally supplied were incomplete/useless. This indicates a bigger problem (thinking landfill here) to me personally. Disagree if you wish, I don't care. These are just my views after years in repair and manufacture.
Click to expand...

Again, I will disagree. What good is a schematic, if you cannot effect the repair. IC's you cannot program, proprietary parts, liability issues, voiding the warranty. The list goes on. What will that do for you, especially when a board swap (minus the aforementioned tech fee) is so inexpensive.
 
#163
Mike Dimin said:
agreed Not really ...you order boards based on a minimum or a price break taking into account the possibility that repairs/replacements will be necessary.


Again, I will disagree. What good is a schematic, if you cannot effect the repair. IC's you cannot program, proprietary parts, liability issues, voiding the warranty. The list goes on. What will that do for you, especially when a board swap (minus the aforementioned tech fee) is so inexpensive.
Click to expand...

If you want to assume the QC check from the board house is the final word, you are right. Most final testing is done as a completed unit with standard connectors. If you supply replacements you need to confirm the unit is functioning per your spec. That will require a pin board or known good dedicated chassis only used for this purpose with an additional labor force (or pulling someone from normal production). That costs and must be passed on.

Without repair info....what board do you replace? Or should you just order them all. Diags are most of the time NOT cut and dry. Would you order a power amp board without knowing if the power supply is supplying the needed voltages? Order a preamp board just because you can hear a thump on turn on from an otherwise dead amp? If you get injured after ignoring the clear warnings on any piece of electronic gear the trouble is yours not not the manufacturers. They did their part to warn you, the stupidity is on you.

Just providing some clarity to my opinion
 
#164
Mike Dimin said:
Let's, for a moment, remove the emotional issue and look at it a bit more obectively:

1. If an LMII costs 535.00 US. it means that the dealer cost is approx 350 (GC might get a better deal due to the exclusive nature of their relationship - perhaps another 10%)

2. Considering that MB need to make profit, based on industry standard, their manufacturing cost is in the range of $175.00 US to $250.00

Now what is inside:

1. Power amp board
2. Preamp board
3. Chassis
4. Faceplate
5. Wire harness
6. knobs
7. A few miscellaneous things

If, as KJ speculated, that they might be using the B&O Power Amp- the minimum cost on that is about 100.00 (at volume discount). That leaves, at most, 150.00 for the remaining components. The Preamp Board is probably could runa nywhere from 35 - 60 US depending on the complexity of the board, the Chassis and faceplate around 60.00 The knobs, wire harness, etc, less than 10.00.

For many repairs, a board swap is the easiest, most cost effective solution. If a component level repair is going to cost more than the swap, it does not make sense to do anything else but swap it out. Even if the tech charges a minimum hour labor (at, let's say 80.00 per hour) - a repair should cost no more that 180.00 for a power amp swap and 160 for a preamp board swap

Mike
Click to expand...

Mike, I do not know you although I have seen your name around these parts but my question to you is this...Do you own a repair facility or regularly perform repairs on electronic gear? If not in my experience over the past 30 years or so is that your estimates are awfully optimistic on the low end. If the boards cost what you surmised there is still shipping added to that. Plus most shops are going to mark that board up a bit for some profit there to help with overhead, In addition most shops add a charge which covers chemicals, solder and other supplies which are used during the repair process. And if you have to take 3/4 of the amp apart just to get to the boards it will be more than one hour of labor. I speak from experience. There are certain amps that when I was doing repairs I refused to work on because of the complexity in just getting to the circuits to work on it. I no longer perform repairs. I now design and build tube amps and I design them to be easy to repair.
Again my suggestion to all those who think repair shops are getting rich is to learn how and do it yourself.
 
#166
Red Planet said:
BTW yes indeed the $415.00 board swap did happen. We all were right here and witnessed the situation from beginning to end. I could not believe it. For another 100 bucks the guy could have had a new amp.

And the $300.00 pot/board repair was real.

If you are going to use information to support MarkBass on this argument, I'd steer clear of those two cases because they were real and do not back the MB side of argumentation up. :D
Click to expand...

"We" all weren't right here and witnessed the situation. Got a link?
 
#168
mcrracer said:
This is not helping this discussion. What is the source of your information? Do you know this for a fact if not you should not have put it in here. By the way I have no dog in this fight. I am retired from the electronic repair / computer industry and board replacement has been a viable repair technique since the 70s...nothing new. I know nothing about the inside of a LM II but I have been inside of gear that just to get to the board in question may have taken several man hours which I charged the customer appropriately. If you want "dirt cheap" repairs, get the years of training required, the years of experience required and buy the expensive test equipment required then do it yourself!
Click to expand...



That was my point. What I'm seeing are people genuinely ignorant of what's involved in a repair making finite statements on what a repair should cost. Conjecture run rampant... and at this point they have to know that but it doesn't stop.
:hmm:
 
#169
Brad Johnson said:
Source, dude?
Click to expand...
nah, i give up, brad. you're right about everything, no matter what it is. and even though the evidence strongly suggests that all those little parts in all our electronic gear are made in 3rd world countries nowadays, you're right that markbass is special and stomps all their own parts right there in italy out of grapes. and high tech doesn't overcharge for board replacements. and markbass amps will never ever break down. and anyone who disagrees is a damnable liar.
 
#171
I have been a director with Euphonic Audio for a number of years. I have been directly involved in the design and manufacturing of amps. I know the manufacturing costs, the R&D costs, prototyping costs. I know how the markup works from supplier to manufacturer to retailer. I know the repair procedures for working on today's SS amplifiers.

I will grant you that working on old tube amps (or for that matter newer ones as well) is a different ball game.

You doubt my numbers but if you work backwards from the selling price, you'll really notice that my numbers are actually quite generous.
 
#172
mcrracer said:
Mike, I do not know you although I have seen your name around these parts but my question to you is this...Do you own a repair facility or regularly perform repairs on electronic gear? If not in my experience over the past 30 years or so is that your estimates are awfully optimistic on the low end. If the boards cost what you surmised there is still shipping added to that. Plus most shops are going to mark that board up a bit for some profit there to help with overhead, In addition most shops add a charge which covers chemicals, solder and other supplies which are used during the repair process. And if you have to take 3/4 of the amp apart just to get to the boards it will be more than one hour of labor. I speak from experience. There are certain amps that when I was doing repairs I refused to work on because of the complexity in just getting to the circuits to work on it. I no longer perform repairs. I now design and build tube amps and I design them to be easy to repair.
Again my suggestion to all those who think repair shops are getting rich is to learn how and do it yourself.
Click to expand...

and BOOM!!! take that, bitches! :D*



*assuming it's okay to say that.. if not, delete
 
#173
Mike Dimin said:
I have been a director with Euphonic Audio for a number of years. I have been directly involved in the design and manufacturing of amps. I know the manufacturing costs, the R&D costs, prototyping costs. I know how the markup works from supplier to manufacturer to retailer. I know the repair procedures for working on today's SS amplifiers.

I will grant you that working on old tube amps (or for that matter newer ones as well) is a different ball game.

You doubt my numbers but if you work backwards from the selling price, you'll really notice that my numbers are actually quite generous.
Click to expand...

Here's something I've wondered from the start with the LMII, Mike... could it be a loss leader? It certainly came in way below the current market.
 
#174
JimmyM said:
nah, i give up, brad. you're right about everything, no matter what it is. and even though the evidence strongly suggests that all those little parts in all our electronic gear are made in 3rd world countries nowadays, you're right that markbass is special and stomps all their own parts right there in italy out of grapes. and high tech doesn't overcharge for board replacements. and markbass amps will never ever break down. and anyone who disagrees is a damnable liar.
Click to expand...

Nice cop out, Jimmy. This has nothing to do with me being right about everything and you know it. Look at how much you've simply been wrong about in this thread... that wasn't my fault.
:)
 
#176
Brad Johnson said:
Nice cop out, Jimmy. This has nothing to do with me being right about everything and you know it. Look at how much you've simply been wrong about in this thread... that wasn't my fault.
:)
Click to expand...
wrong? looks like i've been proven right at every turn by those who are in the know like mike dimin. so if you think i've been wrong at every turn, the only thing left is the price of the board repair and replacement, which means you're basically calling me a liar. you know, i don't mind a good argument, but i draw the line at being called a liar. the $300 board repair evidence is right here in this thread, and that $415 thread is on here for anyone who knows the right keywords to look up.

but just to placate you, my longtime pal whom i thought knew better than to insinuate that i'm lying, i will spend 3-4 minutes out of my precious life trying to find it. all for you, my brother.

and WHAMMO! in your face!

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=555284
 
#177
Brad Johnson said:
Well, that should be proof enough for some that the entire amp was made in China.
:D
Click to expand...
nobody said the entire amp was made in china. just most of the components on their boards. if you want to twist words, this conversation is over. but if you want to have a legit discussion about it, maybe you should stop with the bs.
 
#178
It seems to me that this thread has devolved into folk arguing round in circles. The repair of a surface mount PCB is certainly possible. It's very hard to do for we older tech guys - our equipment isn't suitable. I know I wouldn't even try. My vision is not that good anymore even with magnifying glasses. Add to that that my hands shake too much to work with such fine components.

We are living in a world of obsolescence. It's cheaper to toss something electronic and buy new than it is to repair the unit. Sad but true. At least the faulty items can be recycled to live again in another form.

If all a repair facility is going to do is to swap out a faulty board then the electrical schematic is immaterial. You are actually replacing a "black box". You don't need the circuit of that box to replace it. Any circuit modifications and "fixes" are done at the factory. The new PCB guarantees that the updates filter down to the existing units when and if they fail. The problem is that new PCBs are only available to a select few businesses who can charge whatever they feel they can get away with. The customer has no choice in the matter.

It's up to each and every customer to vote with his/her wallet. If your choice is to buy an unfixable piece of electronic hardware, what ever that item might be, you have to live with your choices.

Paul
 
#179
JimmyM said:
nobody said the entire amp was made in china. just most of the components on their boards. if you want to twist words, this conversation is over. but if you want to have a legit discussion about it, maybe you should stop with the bs.
Click to expand...

I wasn't planning on jumping back in here. But I have to support my man Jimmy.

Maybe, Brad, it's time to back out of the conversation if you're expressing paralyzing skeptical doubt at a number of the inferences many of us have made here that seem -- if not true to you -- then at least rational for a member of the general populace to hold.

Reconsider Mike Dimin's expert testimony and thoughtful estimate of what constitutes a reasonable repair price for a micro amp. (You do remember that EA produces micro amps, right, not different in kind from the offerings of Markbass?) If you want to doubt an expert, fine by me. But then who's the irrational one?

I find it hard to take it seriously that you're interested in the truth rather than ruffling feathers. No one thinks for one second that the $415 repair on a Little Mark is something that a representative number of us will have to go through. No one here is that idiotic.
 

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back