Markbass F1 coming...

[CaptainWally]

Really? That's good to know. I love my LMII but that awful bulk and weight is just getting to be too much.

Just goofing - sorry. Tickled as I am with what I got, I'd be lying if I were to say I was never tempted to try something even smaller & lighter.

So one person says the LM2/F1 are virtually identical sounding, and one person says the two sound so different they can hardly believe they are from the same company. You gotta love EARS and all their variety

 

[KJung]

Cool thread.

So if the LM2 and the F1 have the same pre, do I understand correctly that the main difference is that the F1 has a digital power amp?

Can we expect the new LM800 products (which I understand also have digital power amps) to be a bit more aggressive?

The combination of a tube pre and a more aggressive amp with 800W sounds pretty appealing

It all depends on how close that power amp is to the SD800 circuit. The SD800 sounds REALLY different from the other MB heads (even the F1, which is closer sounding to the LMII than the SD800). The SD800 is, personally, my least favorite MB head. It is VERY modern, very deep in the low end, a bit shy in the low mids, and even more aggressive than the F1 in the upper mids (literally the opposite of the tone I like, which is tighter in the low end, a bit of low mid presence, and a smoother treble response). Edit: The SD800 can sound killer with some cabs, but I found it to be VERY picky in the mix and match.

So, as I've posted before, if the LM800 or LM800 tube sound like a very powerful LMIII or LMTube, that would be a wonderful thing. That's what I thought I was getting when I bought my SD800, and unfortunately found out that was not the case.

The F1 does sound a bit different from the LMII in that, again, it's a bit tighter in the low end and more aggressive in the upper mids, but it's subtle compared to the difference between the LMII and SD800, which is not subtle at all!

 

[KJung]

So one person says the LM2/F1 are virtually identical sounding, and one person says the two sound so different they can hardly believe they are from the same company. You gotta love EARS and all their variety

The truth lies in between the two extreme's. JimmyM's comment that the 'SD800' is just a big LMII and that the 'F1 sound so different that they seem to come from different companies' is so off base from what the rest of us hear that I really don't know what to say about that

Saying the F1 and LMII sound 'identical' is also quite strange, since in our many A/B GTG's, there are differences that are consistently and reliably heard by virtually everyone who has A/B'd those heads through a variety of cabs, etc. (i.e., the tighter low end and more aggressive upper mids of the F1 versus the smoother, fatter LMII). I guess, possibly, if you play through a very 'voiced' cab and/or play a bass with very old strings or whatever, the differences between heads would be minimized.

I would agree that it would be hard to 'love one and hate the other' since they are more similar than different. However, most have a preference for one or the other, depending on if they want it a little warmer, fatter, smoother (LMII) or a bit punchier, aggressive and a bit 'grindier' in the upper mids (F1).

I prefer the F1 myself!

 

[JimmyM]

The truth lies in between the two extreme's. JimmyM's comment that the 'SD800' is just a big LMII and that the 'F1 sound so different that they seem to come from different companies' is so off base from what the rest of us hear that I really don't know what to say about that

Yeah, and you were the one who thought I was off base when I said the LMII sounds tubey, yet a whole ton of other people have posted they felt the same way with no prodding from me. So how about saying, "Maybe Jimmy hears with the ears of a genius"?

 

[KJung]

Yeah, and you were the one who thought I was off base when I said the LMII sounds tubey, yet a whole ton of other people have posted they felt the same way with no prodding from me. So how about saying, "Maybe Jimmy hears with the ears of a genius"?

Hah... you and that tube thing. Um... not so much there either The vast majority of 'LMII rejectors' that I see on this site are 'tube amp guys' (which makes total sense to me). And... MB coming out with 'an LMTube' also suggest your 'ears of a genius' description is a little, well..... um.... well....

I think many use the 'sounds like it has a tube in it' to mean 'warm and not sterile', which definitely describes the LMII. However, in every other way, it's pure solid state... quick, tight, immediate, and totally even throughout its gain and volume range, with virtually no give in the feel at all.

Now, if you've ever played a Mesa Walkabout, that would be an entirely different story!

 

[JimmyM]

Hah... you and that tube thing. Um... not so much there either The vast majority of 'LMII rejectors' that I see on this site are 'tube amp guys' (which makes total sense to me). And... MB coming out with 'an LMTube' also suggest your 'ears of a genius' description is a little, well..... um.... well....

"Accurate"? Is that the word you were looking for, Ken?

Well, we all hear things differently, I guess. But I heard what I heard and I stand behind it 100%. Maybe I'd hear it a little differently after a year and a half of owning an LMII, but I've been back on tubers for close to a year and I still hear the LMII the same way.

 

[KJung]

"Accurate"? Is that the word you were looking for, Ken?

Well, we all hear things differently, I guess. But I heard what I heard and I stand behind it 100%. Maybe I'd hear it a little differently after a year and a half of owning an LMII, but I've been back on tubers for close to a year and I still hear the LMII the same way.

Hey, we all hear what we hear. It's up to the reader to sort it all out.

And to be fair, I guess if you run your tube amp at very low volumes and gain (which I think you do), a tube pre and/or amp can start to sound quite similar to a solid state amp. So, if you use a tube amp that way, I can see where many solid state amps that are reasonably warm, class A/B designs would start to sound tubey to you. That is reasonable.

I find it misleading to fellow TBers to say it the other way around though... that the 'LMII sounds like a tube amp', which is why I always push you back a bit on this. I absolutely hate the feel and tone of a tube amp myself, and love the quick, accurate tone with all that treble hi fi sparkle up top of the MB stuff in general, and the LMII in particular. I do agree though, if you turn a tube amp way down and play through an old school type cab, you can make it sound pretty similar to a solid state pre/amp.

 

[Krügmeister]

COngrats Chef, I got my F1 today and I cannot wait to put it through it's paces.. seriously this amp is VERY small... smaller than I thought it would be.

 

[76Dub]

I don't own one but I played one last week when I met up w/ JONNO... It sounded killer w/ an NV215 and 2008 Fender American Standard P V

 

[Krügmeister]

I ran it though it's paces and I am impressed, it is so tiny and it sounds great through my NV610 I think my MIA Pbass sounded like gold!
Sounded great with all my basses, and my 5 string 'wicks.
It definately sounds different than my AH1000-12 it has more attach while my Trace sounds more like a tube amp with that "trace sound"
I can't get over how little and lite this amp is.
I like it and I will keep it.

 

[Spaldo]

I really don't see how shaving a few lbs off the head is going to help a great deal.

....it's not about the weight, it's the preamp, it's the real estate in the tour bus, it's the vibe, and it's mabo...

 

[Chef]

Tracking showed "scheduled for delivery" today, while paradoxically showing it was still in Maryland...hmmm...
more when it gets here.

 

[Spaldo]

Spaldo;
I know Macmrkt and some toher guys like the F1 for DB...if anyone else here is using theris for that, I'd like to hear about it whether you liked or...or not...

Hey Chef

I've used other amps for upright but i really dig the preamp on the F1 for arco playing (using an underwood transducer), plus i can dial out a lot of the 'squawk', if you will, by using the VLE and still get clear articulation.

Most of the time i amplify my sound through a magnetic pickup, and that just sounds shite anyway....

cheers

 

[Chef]

I have a bow, but very, very seldom use it.
And, so, the world is a better place

 

[DougD]

Tracking showed "scheduled for delivery" today, while paradoxically showing it was still in Maryland...hmmm...
more when it gets here.

Dude!!!! I feel your pain

 

[JimmyM]

Hey, we all hear what we hear. It's up to the reader to sort it all out.

And to be fair, I guess if you run your tube amp at very low volumes and gain (which I think you do), a tube pre and/or amp can start to sound quite similar to a solid state amp. So, if you use a tube amp that way, I can see where many solid state amps that are reasonably warm, class A/B designs would start to sound tubey to you. That is reasonable.

I find it misleading to fellow TBers to say it the other way around though... that the 'LMII sounds like a tube amp', which is why I always push you back a bit on this. I absolutely hate the feel and tone of a tube amp myself, and love the quick, accurate tone with all that treble hi fi sparkle up top of the MB stuff in general, and the LMII in particular. I do agree though, if you turn a tube amp way down and play through an old school type cab, you can make it sound pretty similar to a solid state pre/amp.

I love going round and round on this subject with you because you put up so many arguments against what I say about the LMII, even though we both agree it's the best solid state amp going, and even though after all this time you still don't feel me at all.

OK, so here's why you can't push me back on this...From the time I was 17 until I was 37, the only two gigging amps I owned were a V4B/810 and an SVT/810. Had an Acoustic 136 combo back then, but it was relegated to practices because it was vastly inferior to my Ampegs and not much lighter. So I come from a tremendous background of using tube amps for 99% of my gigs.

You, OTOH, come from a background of using nothing but solid state your entire career. You have said many times that you hate tube amps, and so your entire frame of reference is based on almost all solid state with sporadic tube amp usage, if at all.

There is a certain tonality that I associate with tube amps, especially Ampegs. I can't put my finger on it, but I know it when I hear it. In the 10-year span that I quit using tube amps regularly, and before I tried the LMII, I have tried every major solid state and hybrid amp out there with the exception of the Aguilar DB750. Do you know how many of those amps gave me the tonality I was looking for? In the words of Dean Wormer in Animal House (and Eric the Midget from the Stern Show): ZERO...POINT...ZERO!!! Closest I ever got with with an SWR SM-500 and SM-900, but even that didn't sound anything like what I wanted to hear. It had certain aspects, but it was very much a solid state sounding head.

The second I tried the LMII, I knew it had the tonality I was looking for, and many AB tests against my B-15N confirmed it. The LMII is the ONLY SS amp I've tried that has it, save for the other Markbass models based on the LMII's circuitry. Yes, it's very clean, but so is an unpushed tube amp. And while there are similarities in the tones of a clean tube amp and a clean SS amp, I can easily tell the difference blindfolded.

You say there's a quickness to the attack in the LMII that totally separates it from tube amps. I say you're mistaking overdriven tube amp mush for the classic tube amp sound. Ain't nothing mushy about my SVT at lower volumes. I submit to you that a tube amp at medium clean volume sounds a lot like an LMII at a medium clean volume. It's not identical, but it's about 90% there, which is a lot more than I can say about any other solid state or hybrid out there that I've tried, even Ampeg's. And it sure seems like quite a few people who are used to the Ampeg tube amp tone agree with me. Not all of them, of course, but enough to know that I'm not just hearing things.

Now if you REALLY want to nail Ampeg tones from clean to screamin' in the inexpensive SS department, the Sansamp VT is a better way to go because it nails the tones and it's $150 new. But if you just want a clean Ampeg tube tone and you want it in a 6 lb. SS amp, I will heartily recommend the LMII because as of yet, it's the only one I hear it in. Again, I won't say it's identical, but if it's close enough to keep me satisfied when I can't use my SVT or B-15, it should be close enough for most Ampeg lovers.

Your frame of reference is completely different from mine, and that, to me, is the beauty of the LMII. It can please someone who wants a good "modern" solid state tone as well. But even though I like arguing this with you, it does bum me out that you don't think I'm hearing what I'm hearing, or you sell it short by saying I'd hear the same in most SS amps. You don't have the background with Ampeg that I do, so you really don't know what I'm hearing that makes me think that. So next time, instead of pushing me back, maybe you should think about my extensive onstage time spent with Ampegs and realize that maybe, just maybe, I know what I'm talking about.

Either that, or you're going to have to put up with more of these long, boring posts from me Peace out, my brother!

 

[::::BASSIST::::]

I can hear *why* Jimmy thinks the LMII has Ampeg tube like characteristics... compared to every ss head I've used, but that is only in terms of comparison. Most ss amps are way off. That said, the LMII is still solid state thru and thru to me, but that is mainly because when I think of ss amps I think of clean... which is my preference.

To me the LMII is the perfect synthesis of warm, clean, and tight.... while remaining relatively uncoloured. Add in its versatility, lightweight and value for the dollar, and you have one smokin amp.

 

[CaptainWally]

I can hear *why* Jimmy thinks the LMII has Ampeg tube like characteristics... compared to every ss head I've used, but that is only in terms of comparison. Most ss amps are way off. That said, the LMII is still solid state thru and thru to me, but that is mainly because when I think of ss amps I think of clean... which is my preference.

To me the LMII is the perfect synthesis of warm, clean, and tight.... while remaining relatively uncoloured. Add in its versatility, lightweight and value for the dollar, and you have one smokin amp.

I agree with you across the board: the LMII is an awesome, awesome amp for all those reasons - except possibly one. I'd agree with your assessement of its tone, and the tone is probably what I like least about it. Always sounds good, but its transparency can sometimes be kinda borrr-rring

I'd like to add a bit of grit, grind, or character sometimes. Any suggestions, by the way?

Nothing tube-like to my ears about the LMII, but it doesn't have the slightly harsh/aggressive SS thing found in some amps either, e.g. GK, IMO. EDIT: to be fair, I've not played through an all tube head much. I used an Ashdown ABM500 for years though, which I thought was way tubier sounding than the LMII.

To me, the LMII is just pretty much good transparent volume.

 

[rodl2005]

I totally agree with U JimmyM re the LMII.. etc.. But I also agree w/ some of Kens points Like U JimmyM, I been using all tube amps since I started playing, then In about 2001 I tried a few S.S. amps... to cut a long story.. SAME DEAL, Got rid of them ALL. went BACK to all tube!!! Except 4 the LMII - Still got that, still LOVE it & still USE it every week!!

 

[::::BASSIST::::]

If you want to add a bit (or alot) of colour, try using a Tech 21 SABDDI, the newer VT pedal is supposed to be great too.

My colour (mostly) comes from my DiMarzio Model J pickups, which are not transparent at all. These pickups have balls an elephant would be proud of. If the pups have colour & the amp adds colour and cabs add colour it can sometimes add up to a real schmozzle... ie too much colour. I like to hear the tone of my bass more than anything. However, I am not saying my amp and cabs are not coloured at all. They are... but less so than most other gear I've tried. I think its fair to say that the sum of the parts play a big role in the final outcome of what tone is produced.

Edit: sorry for the derail Chef!