Markbass F1 First Impressions

[KJung]

Gee... that's not great for me then. I was thinking of trying a AE410 to use with my LMII. I sent back the F1 as it seemed slightly different to me but redundant. I favored the LMII over the F1 for the slight thicker overall tone. The F1 was 'faster/quicker' I guess but in the mix the LMII still ruled for me. Maybe I should have kept the F1 longer.. shrug.

I don't see why one couldn't eq out some of the 'too much' frequency though.

The LMII sounds great with the AE410 to me, although I prefer the F1 with everything at this point. However, I dislike the DB750 a LOT, and I know you like that head, so I think we have different tone goals. I have a feeling you will like the LMII better than the F1 for your tone goals. They are quite close, though, but the LMII moves ever so slightly closer to the big tone of the DB750 versus the F1 to my ear (and with much better articulation IMO).

I would think the F1's upper mid focus might be too much for some with the AE410 (although the upper mid control is voiced nicely to reduce that). I would also think the wider, deeper low end of the LMII would be preferred by some with the uber tight EA410.

There's very little reason to own both of these heads. Yes, they are different, but just like the Epi410UL I and II, they are close enough that you can easily use them interchangable on a gig and with slight EQ get them to sound close enough to be very happy with in a mix!

Edit: Vic is using VERY different instruments versus what I'm using, and that might explain our slight differences in describing the subtle differences between the F1 and LMII. Using a huge sounding MTD or Skjold puts a different spin on this stuff versus my J type basses that are not quite so big down low, and that have more growl and mid grind to them, and a rawer top end. IME!

 

[Bassic83]

Hey Vic,
Yeah, the Schroes are mid-heavy, but I really like that aspect of them- they really cut through the mix. The LMII isn't THAT different, but it's noticeable to me, even in the mix (perhaps more so live!).

I haven't had time to run the effects loop out of the F1 into the LMII to ascertain if it is in the pre or in the power section though. I also like the F1 with my 1210, and actually prefer my LMII with my 310212...I don't know why. If I do take the 310212 out on a gig, though, I generally run it with my PLX and my BMax pre. I don't hardly use the 310212 any more, as I have a problem with my shoulder right now that heavy lifting seems to aggravate. But for an outdoor gig, there's nothing like it!

 

[KJung]

Hey Vic,
Yeah, the Schroes are mid-heavy, but I really like that aspect of them- they really cut through the mix. The LMII isn't THAT different, but it's noticeable to me, even in the mix (perhaps more so live!).

I haven't had time to run the effects loop out of the F1 into the LMII to ascertain if it is in the pre or in the power section though. I also like the F1 with my 1210, and actually prefer my LMII with my 310212...I don't know why. If I do take the 310212 out on a gig, though, I generally run it with my PLX and my BMax pre. I don't hardly use the 310212 any more, as I have a problem with my shoulder right now that heavy lifting seems to aggravate. But for an outdoor gig, there's nothing like it!

I also had good luck with the LMII (slightly more than the F1) with my 1212L. The EQ shelving and center points, and the deep bass ability of the LMII really 'evened out' that cab. Talk about a light and LOUD little box.

I haven't used a Schro cab in a bit, but just ordered one of Jorg's new 115L's, just for the heck of it. It looks like a very cool little box. It's a 4ohm 115, black rhino cover, Celestion Neo, and only 14" deep. It's a simple front ported two way box, and I'm hoping it sounds like a big, loud, fat 112. We shall see! I have high hopes for it with my LMII.

 

[Bassic83]

I also had good luck with the LMII (slightly more than the F1) with my 1212L. The EQ shelving and center points, and the deep bass ability of the LMII really 'evened out' that cab. Talk about a light and LOUD little box.

I haven't used a Schro cab in a bit, but just ordered one of Jorg's new 115L's, just for the heck of it. It looks like a very cool little box. It's a 4ohm 115, black rhino cover, Celestion Neo, and only 14" deep. It's a simple front ported two way box, and I'm hoping it sounds like a big, loud, fat 112. We shall see! I have high hopes for it with my LMII.

You have to let us know how it is. I'm a big Schroeder fan, and his new stuff seems really cool as well as his signature cabs. I'm curious about the 15...

 

[KJung]

You have to let us know how it is. I'm a big Schroeder fan, and his new stuff seems really cool as well as his signature cabs. I'm curious about the 15...

I haven't played a 115 for years (since I sold my Bag Ends years ago). It's unusual to find a very lightweight, 4ohm 115, and I have high hopes for it. I've never heard the Celestion Neo's, but they are getting good reviews.

I'm guessing and hoping that, just like those little Bag End 115's, cramming a 15 into a small box will result in a tight low end that should result in a 'super 112' sort of sound. I love Jorg's rhino spray on coating, so it might be a very cool small gig 'stand alone' 115 that should be able to handle the full 500 watts of the LMII (I believe the speaker is rated at 400 watts RMS maximum suggested power).

I should have it in a couple of weeks, so I'll post up.

 

[John D Harris]

So much depends on the interaction between the cab and the bass and the head. While I find the LMII to have a MUCH more crystal clear top end than the very dark sounding AI stuff, I now understand why some call the LMII somewhat dark. It's really a function of the upper mids. The LMII has SWR type sizzle if you want it. It is capable of the Marcus Miller 8K+ top end sizzle that the Focus just doesn't seem to want to reproduce. However, I guess 'bright' and 'dark' are more about the upper mids to some versus the way I use this term (defined more by sizzle and 4K+ upper treble). The LMII is surely not 'bumped' in the upper mids like some heads (I think this is why the slap guys love these heads so much, since many attenuate the upper mids to eliminate that 'gank' slap tone).

The F1 (and SD800) both have more presence in that 1K-2K 'bright area', and I hear a tighter, slightly more compressed low end versus the LMII, which gives the entire head a more 'quick, punchy, accurate, SS' sort of vibe.

What I like most about these amps is that they both have the capability of full, deep, 'real' low end, and treble that will extend to the top of a tweeter's range if you want it. They are both quite transparent sounding, and will very accurately reproduce the 'growl' of a J bass single coil pickup when you dig in, without adding a lot of mush or distortion on their own.

They are both a very unusual example of 'relatively transparent but not sterile' that I've been attempting to achieve but falling short of for years with my iAmps, Walter Woods, AI Focus, etc. (all fine amps, but all voiced in a way that never quite allowed me to just plug in and play without messing with the knobs a bunch).

IMO of course, all fine stuff.

The more I hear about the LMII (and I've read a lot here on TB) the more I think the unit I tried at GC was 'not quite right' in some way or the other.
Seriously, I plugged into the F1 played a bit, plugged into the SD800 played a bit, back to the F1, and then when I plugged into the LMII, I immediately went 'Yuck!', fiddled with it just a little bit and went back to the F1 (and started smiling again).
Those two units were not close sounding at all to me -- it was almost like switching from a new set of roundwounds to a set of old dead strings (and the LMII was fresh out of a box).
I'm thinking that LMII was defective.
I guess my comparison didn't quite work out like I planned.

Anyway, the F1 just sounded so 'perfect' with my bass and cab that it would be hard for me to see myself prefering another amp.

[...and I'm sure I've never had thoughts like this before... ]

 

[GRoberts]

Gee... that's not great for me then. I was thinking of trying a AE410 to use with my LMII. I sent back the F1 as it seemed slightly different to me but redundant. I favored the LMII over the F1 for the slight thicker overall tone. The F1 was 'faster/quicker' I guess but in the mix the LMII still ruled for me. Maybe I should have kept the F1 longer.. shrug.
QUOTE]

+1! Dean, theLMII plus the focused, tight low end punch of the AE410 is a most excellent match! I "highly" recommend the pairing.

I too thought the F1 was not as punchy and full as the LMII. But as it has been said, that depends on which cabinets you pair the amp to. I tried the F1 and LMII with the venerable Bergie mini stack (HT112/EX112) The LMII was better since that stack is rather mid focused. So it benefitted from the deeper and richer sounding low end to my ears. I believe the AE410 also benefits from the full, fat, deeper punch of the LMII. But that is conjecture. But an educated guess nonetheless. Gary

 

[Buster Brown]

Hey Tony! This won't replace the mighty SVT, so you are safe from the Ampeg monster

I dunno.......I'm an Ampeg guy and (now) a MarkBass guy and I have to honest....I am really digging my CMD 121P a LOT!! And, as an added bonus....it's easy as hell to carry around...so until Ampeg gets their collective "heads outta da butts", I'm letting my "little guy" carry most of my work load!

 

[Mark Sacchetti]

I have both the F1 and LMII. I use the F1 all the time playing out cuz its lighter and smaller. In live application it is precise and musical with a tight articulate voicing. ( I am not a fan of big booty bottom amps) The LMII, its a little darker or the "rocker" , to use an analogy,and the F! is the "jazzier" of the 2. They both sound great live to me!

My friend Rueben has both heads coupled with the Schro rhino 1212l or the 21012l and sitting in the audience I really do not hear much of a difference btwn the amps in the context of full band battle conditions. Living room yes real conditions no. He uses the F! all the time for the same reason as I do.

I just got in a 115L Schro and the new gen of the mini 12l. The 15 is a great sounding cab. It has the roundness associated with a 15 but is tight and focused. The cabinet isn't woffy at all. So far I have used both amps with the cab and they sound great with it.

 

[Vic]

I don't see why one couldn't eq out some of the 'too much' frequency though.

It probably could for the most part, but with such different power amps, they're gonna' sound and function differently no matter how they're eq'd. My guess is, if you like the tone and behavior of the LMII, stick with it, and then EQ as needed for cabs. That should work fine.

 

[Vic]

I have a feeling you will like the LMII better than the F1 for your tone goals. They are quite close, though...

Edit: Vic is using VERY different instruments versus what I'm using, and that might explain our slight differences in describing the subtle differences between the F1 and LMII. Using a huge sounding MTD or Skjold puts a different spin on this stuff versus my J type basses that are not quite so big down low, and that have more growl and mid grind to them, and a rawer top end. IME!

+1 on both points.

The LMII isn't THAT different, but it's noticeable to me, even in the mix (perhaps more so live!).

And +1 as well.

 

[KJung]

I have both the F1 and LMII. I use the F1 all the time playing out cuz its lighter and smaller. In live application it is precise and musical with a tight articulate voicing. ( I am not a fan of big booty bottom amps) The LMII, its a little darker or the "rocker" , to use an analogy,and the F! is the "jazzier" of the 2. They both sound great live to me!

My friend Rueben has both heads coupled with the Schro rhino 1212l or the 21012l and sitting in the audience I really do not hear much of a difference btwn the amps in the context of full band battle conditions. Living room yes real conditions no. He uses the F! all the time for the same reason as I do.

I just got in a 115L Schro and the new gen of the mini 12l. The 15 is a great sounding cab. It has the roundness associated with a 15 but is tight and focused. The cabinet isn't woffy at all. So far I have used both amps with the cab and they sound great with it.

While I'm a fan, in general, of Jorg's cabs, many of them (especially the 1212L) have a very, very strong voicing that tends to reduce the subtle differences between amps, basses, etc. The 1212L, and to some extent, the 21012L has a very specific tone due to the voicing built into those cabs, and tends to really overwhelm differences in the rest of your signal chain. So, it would not surprise me if the subtle but real differences between the LMII and F1 was pretty much masked by those cabs.

That's IMO the reason there is so much 'love/hate' for the Schroeders. If you like that inherent voicing, there's nothing else that will project and punch as well in a small box format IME. If you don't like that voicing, no amount of knob twisting will totally remove it.

 

[Mark Sacchetti]

I have listened to the MB heads thru a few cabs by different builders.
Schro's, Epifani, Glockenklang, Brick-house to name a few.

Of course each cab has its own voicing as do the heads. By the way, even with the Schro's you can easily hear the difference between the F1 and the LMII.

I want to state the following statement so there is no confusion.

This is not a personal attack on anyone or their right to express their views!!!

Everyone is entitled to their own experience and preferences.

This is just a discussion about a chronic gear head ailment called S.P.H.S.,splitting pubic hairs syndrome,( please excuse my poor attempt at humor)

I do think as a whole we can get caught up with "gear-smack" high and begin the gradual shift to over analyzing beyond the obvious nature of a particular head/cab, quality/value evaluation process. I know the endorphins are addicting. I will be the first to freely admit I was once a SPHS-aholic. But I am recovered now... really!!... I am!!! I swear it!!

Again IMO in live battle conditions the nuance of the finer points of a cab/head get lost in the music. Of course there are exceptions to this statement. I am hoping I won't have to state the obvious low volume dynamic gigs/ styles of music that will allow a greater detail of the particular equipment used to shine through. Darn I think I just stated it! Oh well!!

What really matters IMO & IME, geez sounding like Bill-O-, is the quality of the components, its ability to achieve the designed goals vs personal preference. Which include the following in the evaluation process.

What you like/grew up with/think sounds good/against what really works in live application/ & does the product execute what it was designed to do/ bang for the buck.

Enuff out of me huh!!

 

[Big String]

Cool. Thanks for all the comments guys. I think that I share some tonal preference with all of you. I like J instruments and prefer a thicker more Rock'd edge to my general tone. I do like a big bottom, but not huge, that is very solid ...(one could take that statement several ways ) All in all though when it comes down to playing live, I think much of what we really love about tone gets diluted somewhat in a mix, especially with horns etc. We've been rehearsing with a bare-bones crew lately just bass, drums, guitar, sax no keys and trumpet. Man... I can hear every note I play and cop a bit of freedom ta-boot.

Soon as I move some extra gear I think I'm going to try an AE410 as it sounds like the best fit for me in a 410 standard box. It's smaller, lighter, with the thinner depth profile I like and looks really cool. I probably will opt to put casters on it though as I love the ease of moving the cab with that install.

Anyone want to sell me theirs...

Btw, I'm not unhappy with my current rig I just think I would like the option of a single 410 for certain rooms we play that require me to bring both my other cabs. I'm pretty sure the AE410 would get close to as loud or equal of three 12's and mid drivers. We don't hardly ever have PA support anymore, so it's all about ME now.

Edit: Gee.. forgot were I was. Sorry for carrying on about cabs on an amp thread.
Anyway I'm glad have my LMII and I thought the F1 was very cool.

 

[John D Harris]

Just the thought of an F1 with a Glockenklang 410 (Take 5 Neo) makes me a bit woozy!

 

[KJung]

I have listened to the MB heads thru a few cabs by different builders.
Schro's, Epifani, Glockenklang, Brick-house to name a few.

Of course each cab has its own voicing as do the heads. By the way, even with the Schro's you can easily hear the difference between the F1 and the LMII.

I want to state the following statement so there is no confusion.

This is not a personal attack on anyone or their right to express their views!!!

Everyone is entitled to their own experience and preferences.

This is just a discussion about a chronic gear head ailment called S.P.H.S.,splitting pubic hairs syndrome,( please excuse my poor attempt at humor)

I do think as a whole we can get caught up with "gear-smack" high and begin the gradual shift to over analyzing beyond the obvious nature of a particular head/cab, quality/value evaluation process. I know the endorphins are addicting. I will be the first to freely admit I was once a SPHS-aholic. But I am recovered now... really!!... I am!!! I swear it!!

Again IMO in live battle conditions the nuance of the finer points of a cab/head get lost in the music. Of course there are exceptions to this statement. I am hoping I won't have to state the obvious low volume dynamic gigs/ styles of music that will allow a greater detail of the particular equipment used to shine through. Darn I think I just stated it! Oh well!!

What really matters IMO & IME, geez sounding like Bill-O-, is the quality of the components, its ability to achieve the designed goals vs personal preference. Which include the following in the evaluation process.

What you like/grew up with/think sounds good/against what really works in live application/ & does the product execute what it was designed to do/ bang for the buck.

Enuff out of me huh!!

Not quite sure what point you are making, but I guess I agree with everything you say... if it sounds good to you, it sounds good to you +1

And I agree, if you are a decent player with the ability to achieve a good tone out of your hand, as I always post, rigs like the Berg, Epi, Markbass F1 and LMII, etc, etc. are literally interchangable for me. I use them all, like them all, and sound 'like me' through all of them. That being said, some combinations put a much bigger smile on my face depending on the context, volume, room, bass, type of music, etc., etc.

 

[Vic]

Not quite sure what point you are making...

He's saying we're pondering details to an impractical level in the current discussion, and maybe even typically on TB. We've heard it before, we'll hear it again, and at least to some extent, he's right. It's still kinda' fun tho.

 

[John D Harris]

I think for the most part more experienced bass players know that there are differences between bass systems that can be heard in a solo setting that get lost in a live band mix.
On the other hand we also know that there are differences between bass systems that are clearly audible in both environments.

Some people will point this out when discussing differences and that's cool.

I guess unless you are a solo artist then in general we probably do have a lot of SPHS, but like Vic said, 'it's kind of fun'.
What are we supposed to be doing, practicing?

 

[Mark Sacchetti]

Darn tootin its fun!

 

[gillento]

....

I would think the F1's upper mid focus might be too much for some with the AE410 (although the upper mid control is voiced nicely to reduce that). I would also think the wider, deeper low end of the LMII would be preferred by some with the uber tight EA410.

... IME!

Does this mean that the F1 is a better match with my Aguilar GS112 than the LMII in order to counteract the infamous GS midscoop?