• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join freeLog in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Me & the Music Minister

Well, all I am reading is a lot of speculation. In many ways being a WL is a thankless job. All too often they are in a position of using musicians who without a doubt have their heart in the right place, but don't have the talent that is really needed. If you are a bass player and the WL plays guitar, there is not too much of a problem since he can't really step on you. But, as a keyboard player, as someone else has already said, he may be in a mode of, "I need to fill as many holes in the sound as possible to cover up for others." My dad, who is 85, plays the organ and has his whole life. I have seen him in situations playing with a band at his church and he struggles to play less than what is written in front of him, which is a 3 part organ chart, it is just an innate part of him to play what is there. Put him up there by himself and he is fantastic though. In my case, I don't have issues with the keyboards, I have issues with the fact that the bass parts are written for everyone who plays bass at the church to be able to play. This means that they are exceedingly simple. Yes, I could up the ante when I am playing, but this causes issues with other people who don't necessarily adapt well to things they are not used to hearing. The WL and MD and I have discussed this a few times and we have agreed that I should just play the regular parts, after all it is not about me! You need to discuss with the powers that be and come to a workable agreement, which may mean that you should sit it out if the WL/MD is unwilling to change. A church is certainly no place for egos, but everyone there is still a human being and as such is susceptible to the ways of the world. Be the bigger person and do the right thing, but that does not mean that you should not make everyone aware of why you are doing what you are doing.

Much of your post sounds like my personal experience and observations. We mostly play off sheet music where the piano can cover the entire accompaniment, and the pianists just play the music as written. While I would prefer to hear arrangements where the piano/keyboard has a specific part to play, that is just not my WL's style. We actually have both a keyboard and piano being played at the same time, and they take turns playing the full accompaniment or just chording. When I feel I can't be heard, it is less because the keys are doubling my part, but more that we don't have an experienced soundman. The mix that gets pumped through our house is primarily keyboard, piano, and vocals.

Fortunately, I do occasionally get invited to fill in at other churches and experience different worship environments, but as much as I enjoy those experiences, it would take a lot more than personal music taste to get me to leave my home church permanently.
 
We mostly play off sheet music where the piano can cover the entire accompaniment, and the pianists just play the music as written.

Jumping out of the whole spiritual point of playing in church, time to put the musician hat back on. Poit57 makes an excellent point here.

The majority of my time on worship teams was as a pianist (sometimes keyboards/synths, as well as bass, drums and occasional guitar). The GREAT equalizer for any music group is the music. Period. In church, everyone got the same songs and charts from the WL/MD - no egos involved - we all could literally be on the same page, first and foremost, yielding to the charts. In doing so, as long as we followed the bones of it, we became trusted to add our own flavors as long as it was appropriate. Our MD even said, "If you really feel led, go for it - if it's not right, I'll let you know". In that, our worship wasn't cookie cutter canned and stiff, it really did flow in unity and freedom, as the Spirit moved. That was at the best of times.

Also, if the piano or organ is the "lead" instrument, it often has the task of playing the melody strongly in order to lead the congregation's singing. When melody isn't strong, people out there often sing less or more sheepishly. (pun intended)

As the pianist, I worked with half a dozen bassists over a decade at one church, as well as subbing in countless others. As long as we all submitted to the chart as a mutual guide - no problems. And any good pianist knows how to orchestrate on the fly, when it's time to double the bass, or get out of the way and comp LH rhythms and chords. (guitarists could be some of the trickier ones to not collide with).

Only once did I clash with a bassist. The reason: He did not like to use charts. The problem: Since he was newer with us (only lasted 2 weeks) - he "knew" the songs from other church experience. Church music can be notorious for being learned by ear in bible study sing-a-longs, or just winging it on less pro-grade worship teams. It's often passed on by aural tradition. And in that, people do weird things when winging it, odd substitute (read: WRONG) chords, to different than standard keys and feels. This new bassist was flying blind in 2 ways : 1) feeling along according to his memory of how a song went, regardless of the rest of the team playing from the chart. So he was flubbing confidently, expecting things that we didn't have happening due to our failure to read and follow his mind. 2) When he didn't know a song, he became a very lagging follower, trying to keep up with my left hand - which, in one instance, I was covering bass, due to his lack, and on the other, I was last-second-dodging out of his way, as he plowed into only God knows what. Dare I say, I was damned if I did, and damned if I didn't. He just didn't know how to read a chart, nor did he want to learn. The worst was playing something like a D 11 chord, charted as C/D where the cat would play the C. Some worship music can use these pivot chords a lot. A bass train wreck every time.

SUBMIT ALL YE TO THE CHART - no ego, no guess work, no fancy pants dancing and head conflicts needed.

and btw - we covered a fair amount of Ron Kenoly music complete with respecting bass parts and solos by the great Abraham Laboriel - and we had a young player who loved to do it. How could any keys guy be so arrogant as to wanna step on that?

Not only did working from charts make the band tighter, but we all learned something to make us better musicians, got along better, were freer to let go and worship better, which spilled into the unity of the congregation. It was a win/win/win - and (i believe) God actually showed up in spite of us, from time to time.

And this is as true for the worship leader to submit to the music/chart as well - BUT, the band MUST submit to the guidance, creativity, freedom and inspiration of the WL/MD, as they are the person in charge of planning the service, hopefully prayerfully so, having a vision in step with the pastor's service plan.
 
Last edited:
Been there. I ran into that more in my high school, college days (I'm 39 now), but haven't for a long time. Probably b/c I am the instrumental director and have been for the last 10 yrs! I would talk to him. I've had musicians approach me, and I'm never offended or threatened. I listen to their concerns and try to meet the need as best as possible. I know there are many out there not as open minded, but it's worth trying to express your concerns of the quality and your role in the music.
As for some that say they've quit b/c of similar experiences; not all churches are like that. You may have had 2 or 3 experience that were poor, but that's a small sample. I also don't think it's just a church thing. I've played with lots of people that were just difficult to get along with. It's that artist/musician insecurity that some deal with more than others. My group is a fairly large team that rotates players and we guard positivity fiercley. Respect for one another is a must and people that can't do that aren't used until they can bring the right attitude. This seems to really help. Everyone feels like they have a voice and can express themselves freely.
Anyway, good luck. I hope you can have a good talk and work it out.
 
  • Like
Reactions: VWbug
Educate. This is a typical problem with a lot of beginning pianists -- they don't realize that they need to have two different techniques for whether they're playing with a bassist or not, and when they get nervous in a performance situation, they revert to solo mode.

Tell him to play like he's wearing handcuffs. Remind him. He'll get it eventually.
 
I'm tired of this man hogging the bass, and forcing me to double him, or maybe add a few slaps. What is even worse is that he changes parts from the record without telling me, leaving me hanging.

This past Sunday, I visited my home church, and the pianist stuck to chords, leaving plenty of room for the bassist. There is no reason why the MD cannot tell me what he wants to play, and either give me YouTube links or charts. I am not an ego maniac (just a Bass Maniac, Tune reference,) if I cannot nail a line, I will happily let him know, and lay out. It also important to note that I have been playing at my church for 18 years, the MD has been there 8 months. I have no plans of going anywhere. He is used to organ, and likes to play bass, but he was hired by s church with a bassist, he needs to accept that reality.

Have you asked him to back off the bass?
Have you asked him for specific directions/charts/links?
If not, it's time to sit down with him for a heart - to - heart.

If you already have asked for these things, then you can try again but you've not got many options otherwise. If most of what you're currently is just doubling him, then that already shows a depth of dysfunction in the group dynamic. I'm going to make an assumption about your ML for the sake of one possibility. If he's already decided that he wants to cover the basslines and that he can do a better job than you then you may just hanging around trying to double a job that's already being done (albeit less than ideally).

All that said, I really hope that this is simply an example of miscommunication. Looking forward to seeing how this pans out.

Lastly, It would almost be better if he simply told you he wanted to cover the bass. I recently tried to rejoin my church's choir band. The ML is also one of the pastors and is a really busy guy. He made it clear that he didn't have time to teach the parts or pass out charts and that if I could keep up I could play on any tunes I wanted to. There were also some scheduling issues, but I realized pretty quickly that I didn't have the time or inclination to learn the Choir's entire book entirely on my own. I bowed out, and I think we are all fine for it. It would have been better if there was time for the band to really get tunes down and have a really locked-in bassist, but within the time that is available having no-bassist or letting the church's long-term worship team bassist (who knows most of the tunes anyway, but doesn't come to practice) play are better choices.
 
Have you asked him to back off the bass?
Have you asked him for specific directions/charts/links?
If not, it's time to sit down with him for a heart - to - heart.

If you already have asked for these things, then you can try again but you've not got many options otherwise. If most of what you're currently is just doubling him, then that already shows a depth of dysfunction in the group dynamic. I'm going to make an assumption about your ML for the sake of one possibility. If he's already decided that he wants to cover the basslines and that he can do a better job than you then you may just hanging around trying to double a job that's already being done (albeit less than ideally).

All that said, I really hope that this is simply an example of miscommunication. Looking forward to seeing how this pans out.

Lastly, It would almost be better if he simply told you he wanted to cover the bass. I recently tried to rejoin my church's choir band. The ML is also one of the pastors and is a really busy guy. He made it clear that he didn't have time to teach the parts or pass out charts and that if I could keep up I could play on any tunes I wanted to. There were also some scheduling issues, but I realized pretty quickly that I didn't have the time or inclination to learn the Choir's entire book entirely on my own. I bowed out, and I think we are all fine for it. It would have been better if there was time for the band to really get tunes down and have a really locked-in bassist, but within the time that is available having no-bassist or letting the church's long-term worship team bassist (who knows most of the tunes anyway, but doesn't come to practice) play are better choices.

I have no doubt that he thinks he can cover parts better than me, but it is not his call. He took a job at a church with a bassist, and I am not going anywhere. If he is willing to do his job, and say what he wants and how he wants it, I will do well. It will certainly sound better than notes clashing from me doubling him most of the time.
 
I have no doubt that he thinks he can cover parts better than me, but it is not his call. He took a job at a church with a bassist, and I am not going anywhere. If he is willing to do his job, and say what he wants and how he wants it, I will do well. It will certainly sound better than notes clashing from me doubling him most of the time.
Ouch! if that's what he's thinking, then that's a tough spot for you to be in. I hope you guys can talk it out.

Ideally it won't come to this, but what would you do if he refuses to give you the sonic space to be the bassist or adequate heads-up of changes to the parts?

As you suggest, doubling in a live situation rarely brings the best results.
 
Have you asked him to back off the bass?
Have you asked him for specific directions/charts/links?
If not, it's time to sit down with him for a heart - to - heart.

If you already have asked for these things, then you can try again but you've not got many options otherwise. If most of what you're currently is just doubling him, then that already shows a depth of dysfunction in the group dynamic. I'm going to make an assumption about your ML for the sake of one possibility. If he's already decided that he wants to cover the basslines and that he can do a better job than you then you may just hanging around trying to double a job that's already being done (albeit less than ideally).

All that said, I really hope that this is simply an example of miscommunication. Looking forward to seeing how this pans out.

Lastly, It would almost be better if he simply told you he wanted to cover the bass. I recently tried to rejoin my church's choir band. The ML is also one of the pastors and is a really busy guy. He made it clear that he didn't have time to teach the parts or pass out charts and that if I could keep up I could play on any tunes I wanted to. There were also some scheduling issues, but I realized pretty quickly that I didn't have the time or inclination to learn the Choir's entire book entirely on my own. I bowed out, and I think we are all fine for it. It would have been better if there was time for the band to really get tunes down and have a really locked-in bassist, but within the time that is available having no-bassist or letting the church's long-term worship team bassist (who knows most of the tunes anyway, but doesn't come to practice) play are better choices.

I have no doubt that he thinks he can cover parts better than me, but it is not his call. He took a job at a church with a bassist, and I am not going anywhere. If he is willing to do his job, and say what he wants and how he wants it, I will do well. It will certainly sound better than notes clashing from me doubling him most of the time
Ouch! if that's what he's thinking, then that's a tough spot for you to be in. I hope you guys can talk it out.

Ideally it won't come to this, but what would you do if he refuses to give you the sonic space to be the bassist or adequate heads-up of changes to the parts?

As you suggest, doubling in a live situation rarely brings the best results.

The MD is a church employee, I am a member. The MD cannot get rid of me. If the church prefers the MD totally controlling the bass, he will get his way. If not, the MD can be ready to but heads or maybe replaced himself
 
The MD is a church employee, I am a member. The MD cannot get rid of me. If the church prefers the MD totally controlling the bass, he will get his way. If not, the MD can be ready to but heads or maybe replaced himself
I guess what I'm saying is if it doesn't get resolved with him, who do you take it too above him? Do you think the church body or a church authority will back you?

Church governance and organization has always fascinated me. I'm not as familiar with the workings of churches where staff aren't members, though I understand that it's fairly common with music-related employees. It sounds like a fraught dynamic when the MD is not a member and individual members of the band are and might be able override his decisions with church support. It really does sound like this guy is something of a jerk and clearly isn't respecting the role of the bass guitar. However, one does wonder what the purpose of hiring an outside MD is when they can't have an effect on the lineup of musicians?

I do hope you all can find a harmonious solution.
 
I guess what I'm saying is if it doesn't get resolved with him, who do you take it too above him? Do you think the church body or a church authority will back you?

Church governance and organization has always fascinated me. I'm not as familiar with the workings of churches where staff aren't members, though I understand that it's fairly common with music-related employees. It sounds like a fraught dynamic when the MD is not a member and individual members of the band are and might be able override his decisions with church support. It really does sound like this guy is something of a jerk and clearly isn't respecting the role of the bass guitar. However, one does wonder what the purpose of hiring an outside MD is when they can't have an effect on the lineup of musicians?

I do hope you all can find a harmonious solution.

The church may very well back the MD. If that is the case, I will stop working as the church bassist.
 
The church may very well back the MD. If that is the case, I will stop working as the church bassist.
Hope it doesn't come to that, It would be the very definition of "everyone loses". Even the MD would lose though from the way you describe him, he probably wouldn't realize what he had lost.
 
Last edited:
Any updates to this?

I finally got back from vacation and talked to the MD after church. I did not play today because I not been to practice for two weeks. One of the drummers took his bass and played today. I talked to the MD and told him I wanted to work out the bass parts where we weren't clashing, and I told him I wanted more detailed instruction in what I was to play so I can make a better contribution. He was receptive, and not defensive. I'll see how things work out.
 
Good--there's hope--

I appreciate the leaders I work with so much--the tell me the songs & what key--I get a copy of the music & play what I feel--they mostly let me do that--although there are times when they want me to come in at a certain time, drop out at a certain point & of course there are dynamics.
But mostly I listen to the leader and follow along with their voice & instrument--and also listen to the overall sound to make sure what I play fits in.
If there are more people playing I keep it simpler--if there are fewer I tend to play a bit more.
I really don't care how the original version goes--I'm going to play what sounds & feels right to me.
Although sometimes I hear the song afterwards & I find out I got it pretty close.
 
does the ML play a piano or use a keyboard amp that's near him? if so, it's possible he can't hear the bass that well, and has no idea what's happening. i'm glad to year you got a chance to talk to him, and hope to hear that things improve.
 
does the ML play a piano or use a keyboard amp that's near him? if so, it's possible he can't hear the bass that well, and has no idea what's happening. i'm glad to year you got a chance to talk to him, and hope to hear that things improve.

He uses a Kurzweil digital keyboard, and he loves a Seinfeld sounding bass program, and he uses an amp in addition to the Kurzweil's built in amp and speakers.