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Me & the Music Minister

How old is your MD (WL)? This could be a huge factor. Experienced musicians (read good musicians) are much easier to talk to about laying off the bass lines with the left hand. I have had to endure church pianists for over 30 years, and I have really played with some heavy left hands. The really good players have a completely different approach when playing with or without a bassist. A lot of church pianists have played without any other musicians so long, they cannot play well in a band setting.

The other side of the coin is I feel like the youngest generation of musicians coming up have no role models to speak of in contemporary music. I feel certain they would be quick to disagree, and I completely understand how they would. Today's youth's taste in music is nothing like what many of us old-timers even consider music at all. Not necessarily right and wrong here, just the way it is. Probably always has, and always will be.

My favorite band settings are ones with no piano player. :)
 
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I have played with left hand heavy keyboardists before. In one case, I just stopped playing. In the other case, I explained to him that he does not have to play basslines as there is a bassist playing. Most times he was playing the wrong notes so we would be clashing. I had the conversation with him. He could not stop it. I quit. I'm not saying for you to quit but I would definitely voice my concerns to the MD, the rest of the band and to the leader of the church. If this is making your church experience less than stellar, folks need to know and know why. Make a joyful noise. If the noise isn't joyful................


I agree with the first part of this but not the second, and here's why:

This matter is a musical issue and not a spiritual issue, which is why a previous response invoking Matthew 18 is not correct. This is not a matter that should go down the road of spiritually-guided discipline potentially leading to excommunication. It just isn't. Further, I don't believe that airing this more broadly is going to help matters. If you decide to leave the church because this is so important to you that you can't solve it, THEN you go to the pastor and tell her (or him) why you are leaving. Be aware that you may come across as a whiner, whether you think you should or not.

Absolutely voice your concerns to the MD. He simply may not understand. If he's young and this is his first big church gig, it may be ignorance not just musically but relationally - although I maintain that this is a musical issue. Young leaders who work with volunteers (which you essentially are) have some learnin' to do and will make mistakes. If you approach this as a 'common ground' conversation, it just might go well. If you approach it with the tone of your original post, it won't go well.

I assume you're both there for the same reasons: to lead God's people in worship. If your ability to do that depends on carving out your sonic space, then you will need to find another venue if he doesn't come around. You may be 100% correct in your musical beef, but that doesn't mean you're 100% correct in your attitude toward it. THAT's where the spiritual issue comes in - and it sounds from here like it's on your end.

Please don't feel that I'm picking on you. I do not intend for it to sound that way. I well understand being stepped on, put down, misunderstood, and having people who are musical idiots do my job or tell me how to do my job. Problem is, in a church it is bigger. If this doesn't go well, consider stepping down from the band instead of leaving the church. If possible, find another way to serve for awhile. You said you're really involved in this church; it sounds like you're not just a hired gun. Consider carefully, and pray well.

$0.02
 
Excellent posts.. I have had this issue on more than one occasion, particularly with organists... (I have come to really dislike Leslies) . I suggest prayer and just talk to the man. Many folks who play in church constantly go on and on about how "It's all about God.. not about me.." but that is not true.. By nature people in the arts be they Christian or secular have to have a certain level of ego involved in what they do or they would not be able to do it... IMO the best that any musician can do is check their egos.. because I don't care what anyone says it is not possible to totally eliminate it. I think that perhaps in this case this person may not have an agenda per se but just be thinking more about himself and his role in the P&W as opposed to considering the role of the entire band.. Perhaps you are being used to convey to this man that he needs to rethink some of that.

I know I don't have Tribbett or Gouche chops, but I really dislike being buried under the keyboard constantly.
 
The MD is just another keys guy that thinks he can fill any part better than any one else in the band and they are only getting in his way.
You should just play the part. You should also do a grammar refresher. It should be The Music Minister and I.

You can read the drafts of my book before I send it to the publisher this fall. You are right about the keyboardist's attitude.
 
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No need to get confrontational or passive aggressive. The guy is young and has been there a short time, so he's probably trying to establish himself. He may have come from a church with a smaller band where he had to cover more parts. He may have had an incompetent bass player, and felt he needed to pick up the slack. Who knows, until you talk to him and see where he's coming from.

My first step would be to talk to the MD. I would kindly and confidently tell him with a big smile before a service, "Don't worry brother, I got this. I'm here to serve, so let me play bass to make you and everyone else sound great, and help the people get their praise on. Can you work with me on this?" If he's a decent enough guy and you're sincere about wanting to serve, it'll be very difficult for him to say no.

I don't think I could say it any better than @jive1 but in true TB fashion, I will try. ;-)

If the band has regular rehearsals, ask the BL to lay off the left hand for a song and let you play, just so he can hear the difference. Hopefully he realizes he'll have so much more freedom to do other things. If no rehearsals, maybe a quick couple of minutes before the church doors open. Barring that, you may have to convince him to do it during a service.

As others have mentioned, a sit down could be in order, too. Tell the BL this is the best way you know who to serve the congregation and you would really like to continue doing so. If nothing changes, you may be faced with a tough decision: a diminished role or moving on. I feel for ya.
 
You are right about the keyboardist's attitude.

That's the crux of the problem, I'd guess. The guy's been on the job for eight months, so you'd figure it's not the "wow, I've got to make a big first impression" phase anymore.

And it would suggest you're feeling devalued by his condescension. Yeah, that'd hurt my feelings, too. Feelings matter to human beings, especially in collaborative artistic endeavors.

Is there enough mutual respect that you can have the "please give me my musical space" convo? And a related question: is the MD rubbing other musicians' fur the wrong way, similarly?
 
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IME_ many keyboardist practice SOLO.
So they develop a style that steps all over other instruments. Because when they play a song, they are covering everything including the bass. Some even play the main vocal melody.
Odds are- they will NOT change.
Even if you firmly talk to him, he might stop for a week or two, but will slip right back into it before long.

I had a guy who kept doubling my bass part on Journey Separate Ways- and it sounded like CRAP, because he was ever so slightly out of time banging out those low Es. He just wouldn't stop- I used TB response #1 to the situation.
 
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That's the crux of the problem, I'd guess. The guy's been on the job for eight months, so you'd figure it's not the "wow, I've got to make a big first impression" phase anymore.

And it would suggest you're feeling devalued by his condescension. Yeah, that'd hurt my feelings, too. Feelings matter to human beings, especially in collaborative artistic endeavors.

Is there enough mutual respect that you can have the "please give me my musical space" convo? And a related question: is the MD rubbing other musicians' fur the wrong way, similarly?

In my experience, MDs are used to working with singers and they cannot replicate drummers, so they have to work with them. He figures he can just do my part, so why fool with me? The irony is that he uses a tone that mimics a the old DX7 patch gets that Seinfeld sound. He would certainly sound better using a real bass guitar.
 
I'm not a religious person but feel this concept applies to bot secular and non secular music:

"The song has a message to convey, therefore it must come first"

I'd have a talk but check myself for any of my own ego involved in how I approach the conversation and put the song and therefore the message as the main goal.
 
jive1 has some great and valid words. I had been playing at my former church for quite awhile, at the Pastor's request, due to their lack of a bassist. Unfortunately, this small congregation, was "run" by the Pastor's wife along with his 2 daughters and grandson, whom all were members of the Worship &Praise team. Despite efforts to reconcile several issues, they were not addressed, hence I moved on. Now I am really enjoying the new church and team! If it were not for moving on I would have not found a few new wonderful Pastor's, but many new Christian brothers as well!

Something tells me that even after all these years, there may be a "new" place for you to be at, and this is just a sign for you to move on, and grow in your walk.
 
this is gonna sound like a rant, as well as be kinda "religious", but only to illustrate the difference between church and music as two different things. -- I don't even think this topic should be in "Bass Humor and Gig Stories" since, unless a person is in a professional paid music director position, it's really not a gig, and it's mostly about working in ministry, which isn't a music gig either.

(feel free to delete this)

wow. same old issues that I've see for yeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaarrrrrrrrs in church with musicians. I was in the realm for 25 years. I experienced it in my own ways, as well as watched other people on both sides, musicians and directors, constantly battle one another over personal turf. That's what this is, a turf war. And sorry to say, anytime such a thing pops up in church, whether it be with a music minister or a musician - I hate to say it but, it's some degree of ego - on both sides.

I've been the MD and I've been the musician and the only conclusion that I could draw after too many years of seeing these conflicts is - It's not all about that bass. It's not about the bass player, or the MD's left hand or left feet, or a musician's years of seniority in service, or the new director's trying to fulfill his commission by carelessly taking control. But that's what's happening on both sides of your equation, and on both sides, it's the wrong power play.

This isn't accusation, it's just human and it's just normal. It's something observed and experienced by myself - as guilty and innocent bystander - that is constantly all too common - sooner or later.

First off, I don't think God needs or cares about music ministers or worship bands. Praise doesn't need the modern human worship construct to be pleasing to God, it just needs loving hearts for God and for one another - not turf, low frequency or otherwise. If it gets to be about anything other than gratitude to God, as a gift freely given, without ego, in a pure posture of service and loving one another (can't i say this?) Eff it all.

When I played on Sundays, all I wanted to do was disappear and pour out my heart for an audience of One - playing or not playing. That's how I worshipped in the language of music that I best spoke my heart and gratitude in. I don't know if it was right or pleasing to God, but it was the best I could do. It wasn't to lift up the people (that's the Holy Spirit's job), it wasn't to be in the MD's back up band, it wasn't to "own" my sonic space, it wasn't to "play it like the record" or have my carnal brain stressed out about "my parts" being stepped on. God need's none of it, if God needs at all.

I was there to yield and serve in respect of the order of things. As a player, that meant, respecting the office of the MD as a leader over me (and some of those cats were far less qualified). That didn't mean being a doormat, but it did mean laying down my ego and doing my best to serve the vision that they were entrusted and called to in their office of music minister and worship leader. Sometimes the MDs were wrong and arrogant jerks; and that, in turn, made me act like one as well. But they were the MD, not me, so I had to adjust and be a christian about it, which was really freekin' hard sometimes.

I didn't always like it or agree with it; and when it got to the point where I was taking it too personally, it was time for me to step down. It didn't even necessarily mean that the MD, the church, or even I, was doing anything wrong, it was just humans struggling to deal with a changing situation. For me letting go was the right thing to do.

Don't misunderstand, I DO feel for your dilemma, I've lived it. It sucks. These sorts of conflicts are borne on human attitudes. Many is the time I've seen the new MD come in and slash-and-burn the old guard, people who served selflessly and faithfully for years and years. I think it's wrong, because people get hurt. I know there are better ways to learn to reason together if both sides can trust one another and work for the common cause - which isn't about the music at all.

-- As a metaphor: How many parents could enjoy their kids celebrating their wedding anniversary if the kids are fighting with each other and pulling all the attention and "glory" of the moment to themselves and turning it into a conflict? Such ego would ruin the moment and the celebration of their years of loving each other. -- So how can we expect something like communal worship to be pleasing to God when "we" are making the moment of P&W about us, or casting sideways glances at the other guy because he's on my turf ?

---The WD probably has done things on the organ the way he does them for a while, and sees that method as the way he worships best, like you feel about how you do things. But even though he's new to you, and you have turf seniority, one mustn't forget that he's had a history before you met of music, training, maybe a license in ministry, maybe he's really called to be there... I don't know - but, just because he's younger, and maybe he is a little power-tripping in his new position of authority as given office by the pastor... but that's where choosing to love one another, preferring one another before yourself, being patient, kind, long suffering, and being a servant, comes in. Because playing in church has nothing to do with music, it's about ministering in service before God and one another. We decrease so He can increase, as the saying goes.

If the WD or any musician is in it for the gig, or to play on stage, then playing in church is just a surrogate for gigging and performance - which praise and worship isn't. Not even close. -- Yes, when one plays for worship, one does "perform" one's best, but not for the "audience" in the pews, or for their own position; and not for the sake of being a tight band and having a good sunday gig. When that happens, it's a gift that we don't own.

Instead, it's about getting the focus on God alone, anything else is out of place. It's ministry, not music. It's worship of God, not performance. It's clean hands, pure heart. First fruits, an offering without blemish. Isn't it?

If it means all of this to you, then it's worth putting down your lo freq guns and maybe asking the WP for help, one on one, as fellow servants, how you might serve better under this circumstance. In kindness and humility, let him know that you're not sure how to play under his methods. No animosity. It's just 2 people with 2 different orientations - him from his prior background and experience - which is valid - and you with yours - which is equally valid.

There are always compromises.

But there are also seasons to everything, and this seems to be, for better or worse, one of change in your church. How many years have you had the joy of doing it your way? These new seasons happen all the time and it's not always easy to adjust to. I endured many until I hit my last one and it was time for me to let go. I'm not saying that's you.

You might be able to tell that the whole topic is frustrating to me. Ideally, I see it as something that shouldn't ever happen in the church - the musician vs ministry tension that you're experiencing. But for as along as forever, it seems, neither side "gets" it. Ministry folks want to do a fresh new program that will suit their own personal interests toward making the church fun for people (and themselves) and help the church grow, and hopefully see God show up -- and musicians want self expression in music regarding their faith, while wanting it to always be fun and fulfilling to them as players.

For both parties, those are the standard human aims. But when you get down to worship and praise, which is supposed to be "in spirit and in truth" and a situation where "God inhabits the praises of His people", what do those ministry/musician things have to do with that???? If church people aren't functioning in humility and service in spirit and in truth, then God (biblically speaking) isn't likely to be inhabiting. So what's the point?

I couldn't deal with it, or myself in it anymore.
"If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal."

Church isn't a gig, it's ministering to God, so God can show up and inhabit.

The good news is, you have your past season of doing it your way, plus you have the whole world outside of that church to keep on doing it your way. Since you do get a stipend, and you're under the new MD, for as long as you agree to be in your roll, you're in a servant position. But truth be told, I strongly believe that the the WD is called to be the servant of all, enabling those under him to do their best.
That's biblical.
 
I agree with the first part of this but not the second, and here's why:

This matter is a musical issue and not a spiritual issue, which is why a previous response invoking Matthew 18 is not correct. This is not a matter that should go down the road of spiritually-guided discipline potentially leading to excommunication. It just isn't. Further, I don't believe that airing this more broadly is going to help matters. If you decide to leave the church because this is so important to you that you can't solve it, THEN you go to the pastor and tell her (or him) why you are leaving. Be aware that you may come across as a whiner, whether you think you should or not.

Absolutely voice your concerns to the MD. He simply may not understand. If he's young and this is his first big church gig, it may be ignorance not just musically but relationally - although I maintain that this is a musical issue. Young leaders who work with volunteers (which you essentially are) have some learnin' to do and will make mistakes. If you approach this as a 'common ground' conversation, it just might go well. If you approach it with the tone of your original post, it won't go well.

I assume you're both there for the same reasons: to lead God's people in worship. If your ability to do that depends on carving out your sonic space, then you will need to find another venue if he doesn't come around. You may be 100% correct in your musical beef, but that doesn't mean you're 100% correct in your attitude toward it. THAT's where the spiritual issue comes in - and it sounds from here like it's on your end.

Please don't feel that I'm picking on you. I do not intend for it to sound that way. I well understand being stepped on, put down, misunderstood, and having people who are musical idiots do my job or tell me how to do my job. Problem is, in a church it is bigger. If this doesn't go well, consider stepping down from the band instead of leaving the church. If possible, find another way to serve for awhile. You said you're really involved in this church; it sounds like you're not just a hired gun. Consider carefully, and pray well.

$0.02

I agree that the issue is musical, and not spiritual. The MD is experienced, and a very solid musician. He was at another church until he ran into problems that were personal, not musical. I suspect that he feels he is better than me, and in terms or training and absolute knowledge, he is my superior. What he does not understand is that constantly leaving me in a position to pick out his baselines on the spot and essentially follow his left hand, he is setting me up to sound terrible.
 
The minister has given the MD carte blanche, he really listens to no one, so he it would help
If he knew that my contribution is appreciated by the minister.
I'm not suggesting you go all Billy Sheehan on him. If he is taking all the bass, use it has an opportunity to expand the sonic capabilities of Bass Guitar. You don't have to play "bass lines" on a bass guitar. I would treat this as a learning experience before even mentioning it to anyone.
 
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He figures he can just do my part, so why fool with me? The irony is that he uses a tone that mimics a the old DX7 patch gets that Seinfeld sound. He would certainly sound better using a real bass guitar.

Pardon the expression, but OMG. It speaks volumes about his 'tude that he's using _that_ kind of patch, which pushes about as far in front of the mix as a bass line can go.
 
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I'm not sure how the congregation / denomination you are in works as you didn't mention it. But let's just assume since you are playing an electric bass in church that you aren't Greek Orthodox, Catholic, or Lutheran, doing some simple math, I am going to assume either Baptist, or a Baptist spin off like Calvary Chapel or other non denominational Bible Church... Things are typically handled in a Scripture first, details out of scripture, like who plays what notes, are to be decided peaceably among those with issue, or democratically among the congregation. (Do we vote this minister out over XYZ issue).

I would recommend that you show some grace and restraint, and approach the new music minister in a problem solving mode, rather than a blaming mode.

Come at it from the approach of "I want to make sure our praise and worship is the best possible. I have these (list them, but do so politely and make sure you emphasize that you feel they interfere with the function of the praise and worship team which is oddly enough, praise and worship...) issues that seem to get in the way for me, what can we do to fix them?"
 
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