Melodic minor question

[MuseChaser]

If I understand, this really means to play the exact same thing as a D major blues scale.

A blues scale is characterised by a flatted fifth, while a lydian scale has a raised fourth. Same difference, right? Not exactly, because a scale with a flatted fifth still contains the perfect fourth , while a scale with a raised fourth (i.e., Lydian) does not.

Additionally, a blues scale is really more of a pentatonic (five note) minor scale with an additional note (the b5)... it skips the second and sixth scale degrees.

A D lydian w/ a b7 would be ..
D, E, F#, G#,A, B, C#, D

A D blues scale would be...
D, F, G, Ab, A, C, D

In my experience, this is what most people mean when they say their "blues scale," but it is also referred to as a minir blues scale, based upon the minor pentatonic scale of 1,b3, 4, 5, b7, and then adding the b5 "blue note."

The "major blues scale," despite having spent five decades as a jazz musician and four of those decades teaching it, is kind of a new one on me in terms of terminology anyway. It seems to be based upon a major pentatic scale... 1,2,3,5,6.. with the addition of a b3. In the key of D, it would be...

D, E, F, F#,A, B, D

Still not the same as lydian with a b7... There's no seventh at all.

 

[RobertAuCoin]

Still not the same as lydian with a b7... There's no seventh at all.

Correct, yes. But, when you play D lydian dominant (which is another name for "lydian with b7," as I understand), over the D mixolydian, then essentially you get to all same notes as a major blues. Because, then you have a b7 "in the mix." (Wink)

That's all I meant, really. "Major blues scale" itself is a bit of a contradiction-in-terms for me, at least for any traditional blues music. But from my understanding, it does not have a b3. It has a major 3 with a major 6, and it omits the 4 and the 7 -- just like the major pentatonic scale does -- but it adds a b5 as the so-called "blue note" for dissonance against the perfect 5.

Of course, I could be wrong! Now, back to Chopsticks on the piano for me.

 

[InhumanResource]

I think what you call a melodic minor is actually the Natural minor or Aeolian mode (sixth mode of the major scale) which is relative minor of the Major key.

Kind of. Melodic minor does not fit into any of the diatonic modes as it is dynamic. Ascending, it has a major 6 and 7 (think Dorian with a raised 7) but descending it follows what you suggested and is the same as natural minor.

 

[Gorilla Monsoon]

My dog barks some…

 

[Dlew919]

I feel like everyone who has answered has interpreted the question differently. We could do with the OP clarifying the question, I’m thinking.

it’s music theory, not music fact. A CMaj7 with no C is an Em. But depending on the context you could use it as a CMaj7 or an Em or a B6. There are very few wrong answers provided they fit.

 

[dhagopian]

Kind of. Melodic minor does not fit into any of the diatonic modes as it is dynamic. Ascending, it has a major 6 and 7 (think Dorian with a raised 7) but descending it follows what you suggested and is the same as natural minor.

What? Melodic Minor is the same ascending and descending. Doesn't matter what direction you play it in. And it's never the natural minor.

 

[dhagopian]

Melodic Minor isn't related to Major harmony.

The formula for Melodic Minor is: R, natural 2, flat or minor 3, perfect 4th, perfect 5th, maj 6, maj 7.

Similar to Major harmony, it has modes built off each degree of the scale as follows:

1: Melodic Minor (Min Maj 7)
2: Dorian b9 (Min 7 b9)
3: Lydian Augmented (Maj 7 #5)
4: Lydian Dominant (Dom 7 #11)
5: Mixolydian b13 (Dom 7 b13)
6: Locrian Natural 9 (Min 7 b5)
7: Altered (chord is a bit tricky on this one but basically use over Dom chords with either b9, #9, b5, #5)

Have fun!

 

[MuseChaser]

What? Melodic Minor is the same ascending and descending. Doesn't matter what direction you play it in. And it's never the natural minor.

Melodic minor, by absolute and indisputable definition, ascends the natural minor scale but with a raised sixth and seventh , and descends identically to the natural minor scale. That is not opinion nor interpretation. Simply a fact. It is unequivocally different ascending and descending.

 

[Groove Master]

Kind of. Melodic minor does not fit into any of the diatonic modes as it is dynamic. Ascending, it has a major 6 and 7 (think Dorian with a raised 7) but descending it follows what you suggested and is the same as natural minor.

It"s true, I forgot that in classical music they still use the old way of playing one way up and descending another way which is the natural minor. So I guess the OP is using the old scale . In Modern music we use it only in the ascending version both ways.

 

[HolmeBass]

Just to be sure I understand what you're trying to say, some definitions first..

1. A (natural) minor scale starts on the sixth note of the relative major scale, utilizing the key signature of that major scale,
2. That scale becomes a melodic minor scale when the sixth and seventh notes of the scale are raised one half step each, but only when as ending. Descending, it's the same as the natural minor. An E melodic minor scale would be...
E, F#,G, A, B, C#,D#,E, D, C, B, A, G, F#,E.

3. A mixolydian scale starts on the fifth major scale degree. D mixolydian would be....

D, E, F#,G, A, B, C, D (and descend the same way)

Now, if you play starting on the sixth note of THAT scale (which happens to be B, the third note of the associated major scale, G major), you are really playing B phrygian (the mode based on the third of a major scale)...

B, C, D, E, F#,G, A, B

That's not a "minor" scale of any kind (typically, you'll find it used when playing over a 7b9, 7#9, or alt7 chord),so there's no way to make it a "melodic minor."

Still, if we apply the "raise the 6th and 7th ascending only" rule for melodic minor, we get...

B, C, D, E, F#,G#,A#,B, A, G, F#,E, D, C, B

Is that the scale you're describing? If so, I'm not aware of a specific name for it, but if you like the sound there's no reason not to practice and use it.

In solos, entire uninterrupted octave runs are rarely used anyway. Scales, modes, and altered scale practice is quite useful to develop facility and to fully acquaint one's ear with all the sounds and tonal palettes available to us, but practicing shorter fragments, constantly shifting direction and modes/scales/key centers once the scale/modes are mastered really helps expand capabilities.

So ascending it’s a bit of a Lydian/altered tonality, could sound very cool.

 

[dhagopian]

Melodic minor, by absolute and indisputable definition, ascends the natural minor scale but with a raised sixth and seventh , and descends identically to the natural minor scale. That is not opinion nor interpretation. Simply a fact. It is unequivocally different ascending and descending.

Cool. Natural minor sounds like butt so I'll keep descending the ascending melodic minor thank you.

 

[Wasnex]

Melodic minor, by absolute and indisputable definition, ascends the natural minor scale but with a raised sixth and seventh , and descends identically to the natural minor scale. That is not opinion nor interpretation. Simply a fact. It is unequivocally different ascending and descending.

Some use the term jazz minor for melodic minor with fixed Maj 6th and 7th. I tend to label the fixed form "jazz" melodic minor, and the classical form as simply "melodic" minor.

Jazz minor scale - Wikipedia

 

[MYLOWFREQ]

Natural Minor Scale (more correctly called: Decending Natural Minor Scale) is the same as Aeolian mode which is the 6th degree of the Major scale, also called the Ionian mode.

Acending Minor scale has a raised 6th and 7th. Generally speaking, you use the raised 6th and 7th degrees when acending only, and the natural minor scale (Decending Natural Minor scale/Aeolian mode) when decending, and the whole scale is now called a Melodic Minor Scale.

I didn't get the question really, but D Mixolydian has one sharp (F#), and B Melodic Minor will have 2 sharps (F#, C#) when decending, and 4 sharps (F#, C#, G#, and A#) when acending.

 

[Les Fret]

Melodic minor, by absolute and indisputable definition, ascends the natural minor scale but with a raised sixth and seventh , and descends identically to the natural minor scale. That is not opinion nor interpretation. Simply a fact. It is unequivocally different ascending and descending.

In classical music it is. But in jazz ascending en descending melodic minor is the same.

 

[MuseChaser]

In classical music it is. But in jazz ascending en descending melodic minor is the same.

Perhaps our wording differs because of differing points of focus... Usage vs. accuracy of nomenclature. I agree that an unaltered natural minor scale is rarely used descending in jazz, and that jazz players and teachers discuss the use of the ascending melodic minor during descending passages. I'm one of those teachers. However, if we simply change the correct name and stipulate that melodic minor can now also refer to a scale that does not revert back to natural minor when descending, confusion ensues as is painfully evident in this thread.

Yes, jazz players tend to avoid playing a natural minor scale when descending, but truth be told they (at least the good ones) avoid playing an entire ascending melodic minor descending too... Or really ANY entire scale most of the time. We weave scale portions with passing tones to lead to chord tones or tension tones where our ears dictate. Typically, even if playing downard the ascending upper half of a melodic minor scale, we'll sometimes play both 6ths (raised and natural) and/or both 7ths (raised and natural) as passing tones so our intended destinations land on the part of the measure or chord progression our ear dictates.

I'm sorry, but melodic minor scales are different ascending and descending. I can accept the usage of "jazz melodic minor" to describe a scale that uses the ascending melodic minor in both directions, I guess, but it does a disservice to the many jazz players who do value clarity of terminology.

 

[Groove Master]

Perhaps our wording differs because of differing points of focus... Usage vs. accuracy of nomenclature. I agree that an unaltered natural minor scale is rarely used descending in jazz, and that jazz players and teachers discuss the use of the ascending melodic minor during descending passages. I'm one of those teachers. However, if we simply change the correct name and stipulate that melodic minor can now also refer to a scale that does not revert back to natural minor when descending, confusion ensues as is painfully evident in this thread.

Yes, jazz players tend to avoid playing a natural minor scale when descending, but truth be told they (at least the good ones) avoid playing an entire ascending melodic minor descending too... Or really ANY entire scale most of the time. We weave scale portions with passing tones to lead to chord tones or tension tones where our ears dictate. Typically, even if playing downard the ascending upper half of a melodic minor scale, we'll sometimes play both 6ths (raised and natural) and/or both 7ths (raised and natural) as passing tones so our intended destinations land on the part of the measure or chord progression our ear dictates.

I'm sorry, but melodic minor scales are different ascending and descending. I can accept the usage of "jazz melodic minor" to describe a scale that uses the ascending melodic minor in both directions, I guess, but it does a disservice to the many jazz players who do value clarity of terminology.

FYI,
The melodic minor "jazz" is one of the most useful scale in the jazz harmony and vocabulary and is the best choice on altered chord and specific chords like the V13(#11), minMaj13, Locrian#2(Aebersold) and so on. This is impossible to use in that context with the classical version of the scale. Which I think the OP was mistaken the minor natural with the melodic minor.

 

[MuseChaser]

For some more thoughts, descriptions, ways of looking at the three basic minor scales (natural/Aeolian, melodic, and harmonic), here's a link to a post I wrote about all three in another thread. The paragraph on melodic minor and the rationale behind it may be helpful.

Learn The Relative Minor

Edit: the link shows up as the title of the thread, and isn't necessarily a descriptor of the linked post.

 

[MuseChaser]

FYI,
The melodic minor "jazz" is one of the most useful scale in the jazz harmony and vocabulary and is the best choice on altered chord and specific chords like the V13(#11), minMaj13, Locrian#2(Aebersold) and so on. This is impossible to use in that context with the classical version of the scale. Which I think the OP was mistaken the minor natural with the melodic minor.

We could debate some of that (see my earlier post about no one ever really playing an entire scale in a solo), but it doesn't matter. It's the incorrect terminology, stating that a melodic minor scale is the same ascending and descending, to which I object. There are so many ways of approaching jazz improvisation and study that to debate what scale should be used over what chord is like debating what is the correct flavor for cake.

 

[Groove Master]

We could debate some of that (see my earlier post about no one ever really playing an entire scale in a solo), but it doesn't matter. It's the incorrect terminology, stating that a melodic minor scale is the same ascending and descending, to which I object. There are so many ways of approaching jazz improvisation and study that to debate what scale should be used over what chord is like debating what is the correct flavor for cake.

Well the thing to consider here is that the ascending melodic minor has a unique set of pitch and not so much while descending the scale. That is why many jazz players started to used the ascending set of pitch of the MM scale and its modes which are unique because they are not attached to a specific tonality like the Major scale and the Harmonic minor scale. Also the minor melodic doesn't support a minor tonality due to the lack of alterations for its dedicated II-V.

 

[BarfanyShart]

It works because, if the key center is D, you are just borrowing the harmonic minor from D major. The "in" alternative would be B Phrygian, which doesn't have a whole lot of strong melodies inside of it (at least to Western ears); or A Dorian, which is totally cool but doesn't have a lot of direction. So, B melodic is a little out, but it relates logically to the key center, and it holds together because melodic minor makes melodies, like, automatically - that's why it's called that.