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memorizing the fretboard???

#21
INTERVALS! Love em. Learning them was very very helpful for me but they can get very involved. It is one of those things that you learn one thing and something else immediately branches off of that concept until you are buried.

Essentially, when I look at them, it sorta combined learning scales and chords into one huge lesson.

Start with your basic major pattern (Ionian [3/15])

modes.cmaj.jpg


Play around with that patten starting anywhere on the E or A strings.

Then play the Natural Minor Scale (Aeolian [12])

Take note of all the notes that are same within the patterns (1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th, 8th)

That is 5/8 of the Major, Natural/Harmonic Minor scale memorized.

Now look at the notes that are different. The 3rd, 6th, and 7th.
From Major to Natural Minor those notes have lowered one half step.

With that understood I highly recommend Scott Devine lessons. Sign up to his page. Incredible teacher with countless hours of lessons. I practice this all time - it is very rewarding to start playing it pretty fast and accurate (not that speed matters as much as accuracy.)



This is on "intervallic scales" and he gets you playing a scale with an intervallic note in between each scale degree.


So now you have an idea of intervals! (hopefully :hiding: It can take some practice)

Next thing that I like to do is start on a chord (let's say G minor - I would normally start with major but I have been practicing minor more so I am more comfortable speaking about it without a bass in my hands) and play the notes of G minor up the neck. After a few times of doing this, you will start noticing some reoccurring patterns.


G|----------3-----|---------7---------|------------12---------|-----------
D|--------5---5---|-----5-8---8-------|---------12----12------|-----------
A|------5------5--|---5---------10----|---10-13----------13---|-----------
E|--3-6---------6-|-6--------------10-|-10-----------------13-|-15 (hold)-



Practice these four measures until you figure out a good way of shift your hand positions. Pointer is 1 and pinky is 4.

1st measure I play fingers 1-4-3-3-1-3-2-3 |
2nd measure I play fingers 3-1-1-3-1-2-3-2|
3rd measure I play fingers 2-1-3-1-1-1-2-3|
4th measure I slide to 15 and hold.

*note: The last note of the 3rd measure is a 7th. It is the first and only time it appears in this exercise. I did it on purpose because it adds a sense of dissonance that pushes you to the 1. Once you reach the 15th fret, you could technically repeat the same pattern from the beginning. Practice however you feel comfortable, I just gave an example of what I would (if I recalled correctly) do.



Even further...

With in the First Measure position. Look at the G Minor arppegitation you started with.

Now look at the pattern of the third measure starting on the 10th fret.

If you play the third measure pattern starting on the first position note ( starting on E:3) you are now playing an inverted 4th (with the added 7th - Cm7) If you want to just play the triad, substitute the last note with A:3. That will cause you to land back on the root note (C).

Same idea, if you look at the second measure starting on E:5 you can play the pattern found at the end (last 4 notes) of the second measure and find that you are now playing an inverted 5 chord (D minor). If you start on E:1 you can play the whole 2nd measure pattern and still be playing D minor.


This is a lot of work for one scale but you can apply this pattern starting on any fret of the E string. The same process (different notes) would apply to doing this for Major and harmonic minor scales and other modes. This should keep you in the shed long enough that not only are you learning these cool little patterns and tricks, it is going to be committed into your memory as you keeping building upon one thing after another.
 
#23
Papa Dangerous said:
INTERVALS! Love em. Learning them was very very helpful for me but they can get very involved. It is one of those things that you learn one thing and something else immediately branches off of that concept until you are buried.

Essentially, when I look at them, it sorta combined learning scales and chords into one huge lesson..
Click to expand...

Thanks for the post. Lot of good information here. No time to digest. Will do so and comment later.

It's Sunday morning and all us Praise guys are leaving for church.

Malcolm
 
#26
Learn the fretboard as a musical context for the best results, do not learn patterns.....we see patterns with in what we learn, we seldom learn from patterns alone

Now this part will resonate with some and not with others...if it does not resonate with you ask why?????

If you learn a CMaj. scale by notes/intervals you learn all the notes, their relationship to each other, how they harmonise, there triads, arpeggios and extensions by name.
You learn how they relate within music........you will also notice a pattern that if repeated, makes many Major scales in many new keys with changes to your notes relationship, but not your intervals.

You will learn to see shapes in your music, but you cannot really see music in your shapes........unless you know music to begin with.
 
#27
Whousedtoplay said:
I tend to politely disagree with all that "anti-pattern" movement.

Fergie, the very first thing you are teaching in your video about scales is, "Tone, Tone, Semitone...."
To me - it's a pattern.

What is Groove?

"...a "groove" is an "understanding of rhythmic patterning" or "feel" and "an intuitive sense" of "a cycle in motion" that emerges from "carefully aligned concurrent rhythmic patterns" that sets in motion dancing or foot-tapping on the part of listeners."

"A rhythmic cadence is a characteristic rhythmic pattern that indicates the end of a phrase".

The same intervals from any root have the same name, m2, M2, m3, M3, etc... - it's a pattern.

I can continue with many examples about patterns in music,
but,
for some reason, when we talk about the fretboard, the patterns suddenly become a very bad thing.

I disagree with it.
I prefer the Synthesis of the Patterns and the Notes.
Click to expand...

Sorry but T T ST T T T ST is not just a pattern, it is a musical idea that can be seen as many patterns on the instrument, and different instruments will have different ways to show those patterns in creating T T ST T T T ST

As i said if you know music ( which i know you do) you can see patterns, the notes and any relationships, but only if you know music.

The pattern on the fretboard for example of CMaj scale is the same as DMaj scale and a Gmaj etc. but put that on the open E and the
pattern requires a different fingering, as it does when mover a ST to F and again when moved to F# to play T T ST T T T ST, so that is one musical idea with different patterns. But those that know music know this, those that don't won't. :)

I am not anti patterns, i am anti lazy ideas in teaching if patterns is all that is being offered. ;)
 
#28
Patterns are useful.

Patterns can be more useful when there is an understanding of why that pattern exists.

To say knowing patterns is wasteful or to not know any patterns is Just fine are both silly ideas. (And I think we can all agree on it)

To simply know a pattern as a shape can be restrictive. To analysize the pattern and understand it can be laborious.

Some people function with knowing the pattern and some people function better without it.

Perhaps a person who doesn't know why the pattern exists has more freedom? They are not mentally bound to a certain idea or concept that inhibits creativity. I had a piano teacher who had a very difficult time playing something incorrectly because it was So ingrained to not play like that. Perhaps the player without the in-depth knowledge of a pattern doesn't need to know it but can Just hear and feel it.

Knowing patterns; however, are obviously good to know. It allows for effective movement around the fretboard. There is So much that does into theory that there always seems something to expand upon. Perhaps you are jamming and you playing chord pattern and about to progress to another chord.. Knowing the notes can help make a big decision... which note to hit for the down beat. You may not want to play the root of the I (one) on the 4th beat of a IV chord (the fifth of a VI) if you are moving to a I chord. (E.g. IV is Fmaj (C is the fifth) to Cmaj (C is the tonic). Something like that came take away from the big back to I strong downbeat.

Knowing why a pattern is a pattern seems to be more logical and the better way to go but it's really up to the player and the context of the situation. As said, the person without knowing may just know where to go intuitively.
 
#29
Whousedtoplay said:
Is T T ST T T T ST a pattern, a musical idea, or Synthesis of a pattern and a musical idea?
Click to expand...

Of course it all of those things..... because you can see it, you can elaborate, and think about it and form a relationship between more than just its form.
In music we will settle on a song pattern, and on our instrument tuned in 4ths that means we can use a learned pattern to transpose it.....so long as it remains in a closed position.
Like i said, playing.... say a Minor Pent riff on 1st fret F is not the same as playing one on 3rd fret G or open E.

If i teach a single Maj scale (which i do) by intervals, i can teach a student how to construct and play all Major scales from that one musical idea. And as such all minor scales as well as triads, arpeggios and chord extensions for both.....all from one musical idea.....not one musical pattern of scale fingerings. I love patterns, but i, and others, see the music then a pattern at the same time......for us it is hard if not impossible to separate he two.
Like i said i love patterns, but for the reasons i have stated, which is more than looking for fingerings.:)
 
#30
I went back and read the OP's original question, and I think the question is more basic than the answers so far.

I would start with memorizing the names of the strings. Then I would start with the lowest pitch string and learn the notes that fall on the position markers (e.g. E,G,A,B,C#,E). Then I would learn focus on the fact that the next higher string is the same note as the fifth fret on the first string ((e.g. 5th fret on E string equals open A string). Then I would learn the notes for the position markers on this second string and study how the notes on the first string relate (e.g. up one string, back 5 frets), and so on. Then I would memorize the 5th intervals (C up to G, G up to D, etc.). Then I would start learning triads and follow all the advice above.
 
#31
I assume most beginners learn the E and A strings, because that's what I had to learn first until I stopped playing bass and resumed after a hiatus.

Nowadays when I'm practicing on my own I try to play as much on the D and G strings as possible using the Bottom two strings as. Reference if I get stuck or something. It's pure practice and some theory. You gotta learn those scales.
 
#32
Just note that most sharp/flat notes are not on the dot markers or block inlays or whatever markers you have on your fretboard. Only exceptions are

Bb on the G string 3rd fret.
C# on the E string 9th fret.
F# on the A string 9th fret

And I think there are a few more.
 
#33
Whousedtoplay said:
(Off-topic. Just to avoid some misunderstanding)

"Our brains evolved to connect the dots of our world into meaningful patterns."
"The brain is always working as a pattern recognition machine."
"Our brains keep the pattern detection engine on all the time."
etc...
Click to expand...

You are correct. What I should have said was: "Some people function better knowing Just the pattern, others may function better knowing it more in-depth " or something like that.

Either way, I like patterns. And as you stated with those quotes was essentially things I was considering in my previous response. So many things are based on patterns in our everyday lives because memorizing random information would probably end up melting our brains.
 
#34
LeeNunn said:
I went back and read the OP's original question, and I think the question is more basic than the answers so far.

I would start with memorizing the names of the strings. Then I would start with the lowest pitch string and learn the notes that fall on the position markers (e.g. E,G,A,B,C#,E). Then I would learn focus on the fact that the next higher string is the same note as the fifth fret on the first string ((e.g. 5th fret on E string equals open A string). Then I would learn the notes for the position markers on this second string and study how the notes on the first string relate (e.g. up one string, back 5 frets), and so on. Then I would memorize the 5th intervals (C up to G, G up to D, etc.). Then I would start learning triads and follow all the advice above.
Click to expand...

Perhaps. I always assume people have a general understanding of above mentioned unless there was the " I am a complete novice disclaimer." Sometimes the simplest answers get overshadowed with a plethora of information.


So,

Learn the musical alphabet.
Learn the accidentals
Learn the enharmonics of those accidentals


Learn each string individually. I liked to do this by starting on each string and counting the whole notes. Start on the open string and play each whole note. (You are actually playing modes in this fashion).

Look up a mode then forget about it for a while.

Learn what a scale is and why it is.

Learn what a chord is and why it is.

Learn rhythm exercises. (This can be done before everything and has always been the beginning of theory or instructional courses I have taken. )

Pick apart aforementioned posts.


I think that would be a good start. A lot of that can be looked at without the bass in hand. Just concepts.


:confused::confused::cool:
 
#35
Papa Danagerous stressed intervals and I agree heartily. I suggest you memorize many of the common intervals and learn where they are played on the instrument. If you know the intervals, you will always know the note names that are around your starting note.

ex) Memorize the perfect fourths (B -> E ->A ->D, etc.) Then play them all over the fretboard and say the notes out loud as you do this.

ex) perfect fifths (I'm a guitarist and we love this "power chord"), E ->B, D -> A, etc.

ex) minor thirds, and major thirds

etc...

Babaghanoush suggested dividing the fretboard up into three sections.
I disagree with this process. My opinion is that this is reasonable for reading studies which have to be broken up into manageable parts. But I suggest that you think of the entire fretboard as one piece, the whole piece being made of the same, movable intervals.

I also like what Papa Danagerous said about learning a theory and it continuously branches out until you are buried. Intervals is one of the core concepts that will bury you, carrying through chord building, reading music, everything.
 
#36
Also, play stuff you know already (scales, arpeggios, licks, songs) except say the note name while you're doing it. Another thing to do is make yourself play stuff in different positions, but the same key. For example, play a song all on one string, or move it up three frets from where you normally play it, but find the same notes.

John
 
#38
Almost evey option mentioned here I stopped using. I have been approaching the fingerboard as if it were the human anatomy, that is to say those that know the human body best are med students and med professionals. They have touched and repaired and worked on the human body. Learning bone, muscle, nerve and other human material by name is so easy to forget. The fretboard is the same. Try this, get a chart, something simple, say Blue Bossa and play the root of each chord within the first 5 frets. Play through it until the progression is natural and you hear the movement. Then work the roots fret 5-10. This is a huge start. You will remember the note location, especially if you use the audio (Dexter Gordon version is readily accessible). After you thouroughly work through a few charts in different keys, voila, the fretboard is not so cryptic.

I use many of the mentioned ideas here, but to teach different principles. My feeling is music is the only way to really know the fingerboard. This is a highly opinionated way to state this and I hope it does not come across wrong. Scales and intervallic methods are, I believe, easier to comprehend when examinig them with music as well.
 

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