Mesa Powerhouse vs Subway cabs

[uncle woody]

Hey Guys,

I've sold my standard PH610 and have regretted it ever since. That cab was made by the God of Thunder himself.

How do the subway cabs compare to the big Mesa PH's (810, 610, 412). It would be hard to imagine a cabinet achieving the same smooth deepness and clarity without the actual size and sheer weight and, well... actual deepness behind it.

I'm looking at the 410 especially. All the other cabs would just look puny between our Marshall stack line-up. It is however stupid expensive and two is out of the picture. I don't think the subway line is made for me. I actually like oversized cabs and breaking backs.

Thanks

 

[HearNoStevil]

There is no comparison. I own three Mesa Powerhouse 810s and they are astounding in their clarity, volume, midrange, heft, and also deathly weight. Alot of weight.

The advantage of the Subway line is lower weight. They do decent for that aspect, as there is always a trade-off. Lower weight speakers, lower weight materials, thinner wood. More modern flatter tone, less aggressive, more clinical and less character. Kinda the opposite of the Mesa of old.

The amp world has changed. The Subways are more personal monitors onstage for players that mainly have FOH support. They can get sorta-loud, but they aren't going to be comparing to a Mesa 610 or 810 in any way.

The 215 that I tried was the closest. It was surprising in its ability based on its size and weight. It still sounded a bit small and boxy compared to the big cabs of yore, but that is about the only one I could hear myself with with a loud band. It's the only one I would consider if I had to, but since I don't have to, I would never buy a Mesa Subway cabinet. I bought my 810s when I found out they were discontinuing the line, knowing it was the end of an era. I saw the Genzification of Mesa on the horizon a long time ago, and prepared for the change.

 

[uncle woody]

There is no comparison. I own three Mesa Powerhouse 810s and they are astounding in their clarity, volume, midrange, heft, and also deathly weight. Alot of weight.

The advantage of the Subway line is lower weight. They do decent for that aspect, as there is always a trade-off. Lower weight speakers, lower weight materials, thinner wood. More modern flatter tone, less aggressive, more clinical and less character. Kinda the opposite of the Mesa of old.

The amp world has changed. The Subways are more personal monitors onstage for players that mainly have FOH support. They can get sorta-loud, but they aren't going to be comparing to a Mesa 610 or 810 in any way.

The 215 that I tried was the closest. It was surprising in its ability based on its size and weight. It still sounded a bit small and boxy compared to the big cabs of yore, but that is about the only one I could hear myself with with a loud band. It's the only one I would consider if I had to, but since I don't have to, I would never buy a Mesa Subway cabinet. I bought my 810s when I found out they were discontinuing the line, knowing it was the end of an era. I saw the Genzification of Mesa on the horizon a long time ago, and prepared for the change.

Basically confirmed my suspicions.

I am forever looking for a PH810 but it feels like chasing a mythical creature here in Europe.

I contacted Mesa and they say they were never really sold in shops except for custom demand by backline companies and touring artists. I have never seen any being sold either new or used.

While I understand the new era of amps, I think a little of the magic is lost and traded for convenience.

 

[HearNoStevil]

Basically confirmed my suspicions.

I am forever looking for a PH810 but it feels like chasing a mythical creature here in Europe.

I contacted Mesa and they say they were never really sold in shops except for custom demand by backline companies and touring artists. I have never seen any being sold either new or used.

While I understand the new era of amps, I think a little of the magic is lost and traded for convenience.

Here is one of my Mesa 810 cabs. I did them all in crazy colors.

In all honesty, if you can find one, I would find a Peavey VB-810 cab. You can find them used for a few hundred bucks. They are a true old-school cabinet, loud as hell, and built like a beast. They are the last USA-made Peavey cabinets, and owning both, the Peavey is honestly built better than the Mesa cabs I own. I know some people won't believe that, but the Peavey uses cast-frame Eminence USA drivers, and each screw is held by a T-nut where the Mesa cab uses cheaper stamped drivers, and plain wood screws screwed directly into the wood (no T-nuts) with no regard to whether the screwholes are lined up with each other speaker. It's like they sat the speaker anywhere on the hole and immediately screwed it down. When two speakers are next to each other, all the screws are inserted at random locations. You don't really see it without a grill, but I was surprised to see such cost-cutting and time-saving production methods. I also had to have Mesa remake two of my grills as the grill material was pretty badly crooked; I was surprisingly given the explanation that it was designed to "look good at 30 feet, not 3 feet" until I went up the chain to get someone to address the problem. They then remade them perfectly as they have some great guys working in the actual shop; the ones who actually build the stuff are true craftsmen.

The Peavey uses a higher gage wire, heavier more extensive bracing, and is a sealed 4 chamber cabinet with ample insulation stapled to the walls of every chamber; the Mesas have insulation, but it isn't secured like the Peavey. The Peavey is a bit lighter overall, and covered in durable bedliner (not as fancy as the Mesa vinyl for sure but still looks great, and more workmanlike). The Peavey is a bit more aggressive in the midrange, but the overall efficiency is about the same as the Mesa, and surprisingly close in overall tone, with a nudge going to the Peavey since the Peavey's grill is more transparent than the thicker Mesa grill material which filters out some of the upper mid aggressiveness. Also, the Peavey has provisions for running it in stereo where the Mesa stupidly just has one input.

I love my Mesa cabs, but I'm just being honest in my review. The Peavey is the old-school vibe of the old Mesa cabinets at a fraction of the cost, all the tone, and none of the bloom.

 

[mikeswals]

It is however stupid expensive and two is out of the picture.

Then look for used cabs.

 

[pfschim]

I have used a few Powerhouse (1000 and 2x12) cabs over the years, and have not used any of the Subway cabs ... but I do use modern cabs (Bergantino) that are probably similar.

While I love Mesa amps and have used/owned many over the years (Buster, D180, MPulse 600, D800+) and kept 2 (Walkabout and WD800), I have never cared for the older Powerhouse cabs because they do have a baked in mid/upper mid aggressiveness that is very hard to tame. If that EQ curve works for you that's cool, but if it doesn't, then your basically stuck.

I would say modern cabs, besides being a heck of a lot lighter, deliver just as much power and tone as any of the older cabs. The idea that was expressed above, that modern cabs are somehow lacking, is just wrong IMO/IME. My experience says you can make a modern cab sound like pretty much anything you want/need, but a heavily voiced older cab is pretty much going to sound like it sounds and you are going to have to like it or lump it.

good luck!

 

[uncle woody]

.

I have used a few Powerhouse (1000 and 2x12) cabs over the years, and have not used any of the Subway cabs ... but I do use modern cabs (Bergantino) that are probably similar.

While I love Mesa amps and have used/owned many over the years (Buster, D180, MPulse 600, D800+) and kept 2 (Walkabout and WD800), I have never cared for the older Powerhouse cabs because they do have a baked in mid/upper mid aggressiveness that is very hard to tame. If that EQ curve works for you that's cool, but if it doesn't, then your basically stuck.

I would say modern cabs, besides being a heck of a lot lighter, deliver just as much power and tone as any of the older cabs. The idea that was expressed above, that modern cabs are somehow lacking, is just wrong IMO/IME. My experience says you can make a modern cab sound like pretty much anything you want/need, but a heavily voiced older cab is pretty much going to sound like it sounds and you are going to have to like it or lump it.

good luck!

First of all, please don't let the PH1000 bother your opinion. It is the ugly nephew nobody wants to play with. We don't talk about him .

I completely agree with what you say about the baked in tone. The difference between us is that I seek that baked in tone. I use that grind to cut through walls of guitars.

In my experience though, I haven't had any good times with the new generation lighter cabs. Though I've tried. But I do admit I might just be biased looking for that PH tone that seems to be missing in everything I play through.

 

[Wasnex]

The PH810s were both rated for 1200W. I believe their sensitivty was 104.8dB 1W/1m. I don't believe any of the mechanical power handling specs was ever provided for the PH line.

The Subway 410 is rated for 1200W with a sensitivity of 100.4dB 1W/1m. Average Mechanical Power handling from 50 to 1000hz is 1,000 watts and Minimum Mechanical Power is listed as 925W at 79.9hz. This cab is only available in 4 ohms, so stacking a pair of 410s to get 810 equivalency requires a 2 ohm stable amp. I believe efficiency would jump up 3dB to 103.4dB 1W/1m. You could make up with the slight difference in sensitivity by hitting the Subways with more power.

PH810: At 1200W the calculated max SPL at 104.8dB sensitivity is 135.59
Pair of Subway 410s: At 2400W the calculated max SPL at 103.4 sensitivity is 137.28

So with the right amp, a pair of Subway 410s should theoretically get louder than the PH810. Whether you like the aggressive voicing of the PH line or the more modern voicing of the Subway line is another matter.

For comparison, the Subway 215 is rated for 800W and also comes in 4 ohms. So running a pair of these would also require an amp that is stable at two ohms. Mechanical power handling limits are provided for all Subway cabs on the respective specs page if you are interested. Sensitivity is 100.4dB 1W/1m. Calculated max volume for a single 215 at 800 is 129.5. A pair of 215: At 1600W the calculated max SPL would be 135.5. The is pretty much the same max SPL as the PH 810, but you need an additional 400W and the load is 2 ohms instead of 4 ohms.

 

[HearNoStevil]

.


I completely agree with what you say about the baked in tone. The difference between us is that I seek that baked in tone. I use that grind to cut through walls of guitars.

In my experience though, I haven't had any good times with the new generation lighter cabs. Though I've tried. But I do admit I might just be biased looking for that PH tone that seems to be missing in everything I play through.

Like I said, find a Peavey VB-810. If forgot to mention it earlier, but the VB-810 used USA Eminence Legend cast frame CA-10 drivers.

BTW, I'm not sure how Peavey sold them new for around $799, since those drivers alone sell for $119 each. So, if you figure Peavey paid $60 each per driver, they spent $480 just on drivers, not counting the cost to build and ship the cabinet. No wonder they were discontinued.

The fact that you can buy them used for a few hundred dollars is astounding as the drivers alone are worth twice that.

 

[two fingers]

Please tell me all of you guys wear earplugs. In this age of amazing IEM technology, all of this seems a bit much.

 

[HearNoStevil]

Please tell me all of you guys wear earplugs. In this age of amazing IEM technology, all of this seems a bit much.

That takes all the fun out of it!

 

[uncle woody]

Please tell me all of you guys wear earplugs. In this age of amazing IEM technology, all of this seems a bit much.

I remember as a kid I saw a guy wheeling an ampeg 810 into a club and beeing blown away by the sheer punch and low end that came out of the thing and thought it was the coolest thing ever. I think that impression is something worth passing on, even if it is a mental thing.

 

[ShadowGroover]

Go for the Subway 610. Put it behind a lightweight PH 610 facade. Get accolades from purists about how the old cabs sound best.

 

[uncle woody]

Go for the Subway 610. Put it behind a lightweight PH 610 facade. Get accolades from purists about how the old cabs sound best.

Hahaha, yeah, remember dem' good ol' days.
If only there was a subway 610.

I'll think about putting a subway 1x12 in an empty PH810cab and micing it internally.

 

[agedhorse]

The PH810s were both rated for 1200W. I believe their sensitivty was 104.8dB 1W/1m. I don't believe any of the mechanical power handling specs was ever provided for the PH line.

The Subway 410 is rated for 1200W with a sensitivity of 100.4dB 1W/1m. Average Mechanical Power handling from 50 to 1000hz is 1,000 watts and Minimum Mechanical Power is listed as 925W at 79.9hz. This cab is only available in 4 ohms, so stacking a pair of 410s to get 810 equivalency requires a 2 ohm stable amp. I believe efficiency would jump up 3dB to 103.4dB 1W/1m. You could make up with the slight difference in sensitivity by hitting the Subways with more power.

PH810: At 1200W the calculated max SPL at 104.8dB sensitivity is 135.59
Pair of Subway 410s: At 2400W the calculated max SPL at 103.4 sensitivity is 137.28

So with the right amp, a pair of Subway 410s should theoretically get louder than the PH810. Whether you like the aggressive voicing of the PH line or the more modern voicing of the Subway line is another matter.

For comparison, the Subway 215 is rated for 800W and also comes in 4 ohms. So running a pair of these would also require an amp that is stable at two ohms. Mechanical power handling limits are provided for all Subway cabs on the respective specs page if you are interested. Sensitivity is 100.4dB 1W/1m. Calculated max volume for a single 215 at 800 is 129.5. A pair of 215: At 1600W the calculated max SPL would be 135.5. The is pretty much the same max SPL as the PH 810, but you need an additional 400W and the load is 2 ohms instead of 4 ohms.

The low frequency extension of the Subway cabinets is greater than the Powerhouse cabinets as is the measurement bandwidth. The Subway cabinets are more sensitive if measured over the same 50Hz -5kHz bandwidth.

The Powerhouse line is more heavily voiced in the mids, more aggressive and in your face brash. If that's the tone you are looking for, the PH is probably a better choice if you can deal with the larger size and weight.

The Subway cabinets have a deeper low frequency extension, are more articulate, refined and polite in the mids, though that doesn't mean they are mid shy.

The ratings are also more rigorously derived. These ratings have evolved to better match the higher powered amplifiers available today.

The Subway cabinets are smaller and much lighter weight too.

 

[DigitalMan]

I've had multiple Roadready 4x12 and 1x18 (at the same time), Diesel 1x15, Powerhouse 2x12, and both Subway 112 and 115.

I'll take the SW115 every day of the week.

 

[uncle woody]

I've had multiple Roadready 4x12 and 1x18 (at the same time), Diesel 1x15, Powerhouse 2x12, and both Subway 112 and 115.

I'll take the SW115 every day of the week.

Does the 115 not pay in terms of quickness and high range? Especially since you seemed fond of the 12" attack.
Also, does it somewhat resemble that powerhouse sound or do you find it's just something else.

Cheers!

 

[HearNoStevil]

I would reiterate and reinforce something clarified in this thread; compared to my Powerhouse cabs, the 215 Subway cab I tried-while being much less efficient in the all-important mids-would be that it is much, much, much more a "polite" cabinet. As a matter of fact, I find the Subway cabinets exactly accentuate the new "polite" nature of current Mesa amps.

But, that "polite" nature is the antithesis of the old Mesa cabs (and heads).

"Light and polite." That about sums it up.

 

[agedhorse]

I would reiterate and reinforce something clarified in this thread; compared to my Powerhouse cabs, the 215 Subway cab I tried-while being much less efficient in the all-important mids-would be that it is much, much, much more a "polite" cabinet. As a matter of fact, I find the Subway cabinets exactly accentuate the new "polite" nature of current Mesa amps.

But, that "polite" nature is the antithesis of the old Mesa cabs (and heads).

"Light and polite." That about sums it up.

If that doesn't work for you, there's plenty of the earlier gear available on the used market at great prices.

The newer cabinets are designed to appeal to a much wider range of players and music styles, as well as being lighter and smaller (very much player driven changes).

As far as amps being polite, I wouldn't consider either the WD or TT amps to be particularly polite, but again these amps (and their features/performance) were heavily player driven, including extensive input from many players here on TalkBass.

Your opinion is just that, an opinion. Be glad that you have found amps/cabs that you like, so that you can pass on anything new and/or different. Other players have different opinions, preferences and tastes than you do, that's fine as well.

 

[HearNoStevil]

If that doesn't work for you, there's plenty of the earlier gear available on the used market at great prices.

The newer cabinets are designed to appeal to a much wider range of players and music styles, as well as being lighter and smaller (very much player driven changes).

As far as amps being polite, I wouldn't consider either the WD or TT amps to be particularly polite, but again these amps (and their features/performance) were heavily player driven, including extensive input from many players here on TalkBass.

Your opinion is just that, an opinion. Be glad that you have found amps/cabs that you like, so that you can pass on anything new and/or different. Other players have different opinions, preferences and tastes than you do, that's fine as well.

I was responding to, and giving real-world advice from decades of real-world use, to a player who desires the old Mesa cab sound, which I have experienced since I own several, and have relayed my observations of those old style cabs to the new style cabs; of which the design philosophy appears to be the opposite of the cabs/sound/design of old.

The OP asked specifically about comparing the old Powerhouse cabinets to the new Subway cabinets, which I have direct personal experience with. So, I gave him an honest and thorough account of the comparison between the two; the old cabs while heavy are more efficient and much more aggressive in the mids. The new cabs, using your own description, are light and polite.