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Metronomes and Jeff Berlin

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#41
Nice long post there ed,

What I was talking about is relative timing. You have to be able to start a song at a given tempo and end the same tempo without a metronome. It doent matter what the starting tempo is. Of course there is a human factor margin.

If you can't tell that you are drifting in time you need to practice what you are playing until you can concentrate on the timing.

absolute time is a another thing and is not always desirable(ie sequencers in live situations)

sorry about the spelling
 
#42
Originally posted by Samie


If you can't tell that you are drifting in time you need to practice what you are playing until you can concentrate on the timing.
Click to expand...

But if you don't know that you are "drifting" - i.e. slowing down or speeding up - then the only thing that can tell you this, is some reference point, like a metronome.

If you practice without this reference, then you could easily be drifting all the time. You could be practising 12 hours a day, every day for 20 years, but if you have no reference point to compare with - how can you know whether you have played in time during this practice or not?

I think this is what we want Jeff to explain to us!
 
#44
Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield


But if you don't know that you are "drifting" - i.e. slowing down or speeding up - then the only thing that can tell you this, is some reference point, like a metronome.
Click to expand...

I think we agree, I am just adding that sooner or later YOU have to be that reference. Its something you have to "feel" and "know".

Yeah, I hope jeff gives some input also.
 
#46
i think an integral aspect of jeff's teaching method is to make a wide-reaching, sweeping generalization that would seem contentious to those hearing it, at least on a limited forum like internet based communication. capitalizing on his cache as an experienced and excellent player and educator, the point is discussed and disseminated, until everyone is properly "tenderized" and receptive :D then jeff steps in and makes his point, and everyone is enlightened.

so, uh. where's jeff? :D :D
 
#47
Jeff has given his expert opinion on this subject.

I believe, Bruce, that it would serve no purpose for Jeff to spend time defending an opinion. He can no more prove his opinion than any of the rest of us can. All he can do is offer advice. If one wants to consider his advice, that's fine. If not, no one is obligated to do so.

It appears to me that Jeff is refusing to let what started out as a discussion to turn into an argument.

Bruce, when you decided that tab shouldn't be encouraged on TB, you went down to Jeffs forum and made every attempt to recruit him for your "anti tab" canpaign.

Did you notice that Jeff didn't go for the bait?

Jeff is the new kid on the block and probably has no desire to alienate either the pro or con tab members. Likewise pro or con metronome users.

At no time has Jeff said that his opinion is written in stone.

At no time have I said that my opinion is written in stone. I could give a **** less if you agree with me or not. Maybe Jeff feels the same way.

Since it seems that the most important thing in this whole discussion is that you be right, as far as I'm concerned, you are hereby "right" in all matters bass related. Happier now?

A good discussion stops being a discussion when either party gets caught up in HAVING to be the one who's right.

Again, just my humble opinion.

Pkr2
 
#48
Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield


So if you don't agree that the metronome is a useful tool or reference point, then what should you use - should you never check that you can keep time?
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I haven't "checked to see if I was in time" in probably thirty years. I KNOW when I'm in or out of time and I don't need a nome to tell me.

If one practices by playing along with records, the timing reference is just as present as it would be with a metronome.

If your timing is not instinctive, there are not enough nomes in the world to make you a musician.

Of course a nome is a valuable tool when you are learning to play. It's just one less thing to worry about in a complex undertaking.

Just because you use crutches with a sprained ankle doesn't mean you have to walk on crutches after your ankle can support you, though.

Pkr2
 
#49
Originally posted by pkr2


Bruce, when you decided that tab shouldn't be encouraged on TB, you went down to Jeffs forum and made every attempt to recruit him for your "anti tab" canpaign.

Did you notice that Jeff didn't go for the bait?
Click to expand...


But this isn't the way it happened at all! If you look through the "Ask JB forum"; there is a post from "Dude" (Steve Barr) which mentions "Motley Crew Tabs" (somewhat ironically I thought! ;) ) - I think it was called "How low do you go". Jeff picked up on this and launched into a put-down of tab in reply. I copied the part of this reply that specifically referred to being vociferously anti-Tabs and asked Jeff a specific quetsion in reply to this - trhat is, whether, as he thought Tabs were so bad that TalkBass should be encouraging them in the form of the Tab Archive?

I specifically asked people not to join in and start a big pro/anti Tabs debate and that I just wanted to ask Jeff this one particular question - but of course nobody took any notice of what I said and jumped in feet first anyway - some with apologies later! :rolleyes:

After much toing and froing Jeff did finally answer the question - by that time there were so many posts it was difficult to sort the "wood from the trees" - Jeff said that he wasn't "anti" TB having Tabs as such, but that Tabs couldn't help you learn anything about being a musician.

If everybody had respected Paul's guidelines, this thread would not have got blown out of all proportion and might have amounted to two posts that would have passed by without incident - as it is, nobody bothered reading what I had actually said and just ploughed in with their own prejudices anyway as usual!!
 
#50
I will also weigh in on the side of metronomes. They provide that (IMO) very necessary point of reference that Bruce alludes to. I have been playing over 30 years and possess pretty good "time", and I still check myself against a reference point.

Metronomes have not stymied my ability to express myself in anyway that I can tell. If any thing, they have helped me hear the "space" around notes better. I fail to see any significant downside to using one.
 
#51
Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield



But this isn't the way it happened at all! If you look through the "Ask JB forum"; there is a post from "Dude" (Steve Barr) which mentions "Motley Crew Tabs" (somewhat ironically I thought! ;) ) - I think it was called "How low do you go". Jeff picked up on this and launched into a put-down of tab in reply. I copied the part of this reply that specifically referred to being vociferously anti-Tabs and asked Jeff a specific quetsion in reply to this - trhat is, whether, as he thought Tabs were so bad that TalkBass should be encouraging them in the form of the Tab Archive?

I specifically asked people not to join in and start a big pro/anti Tabs debate and that I just wanted to ask Jeff this one particular question - but of course nobody took any notice of what I said and jumped in feet first anyway - some with apologies later! :rolleyes:

After much toing and froing Jeff did finally answer the question - by that time there were so many posts it was difficult to sort the "wood from the trees" - Jeff said that he wasn't "anti" TB having Tabs as such, but that Tabs couldn't help you learn anything about being a musician.

If everybody had respected Paul's guidelines, this thread would not have got blown out of all proportion and might have amounted to two posts that would have passed by without incident - as it is, nobody bothered reading what I had actually said and just ploughed in with their own prejudices anyway as usual!!
Click to expand...

Sorry Bruce, you're right as usual.

I'm looking forward to you having your own forum.

Pkr2
 
#52
Originally posted by pkr2


Since it seems that the most important thing in this whole discussion is that you be right, as far as I'm concerned, you are hereby "right" in all matters bass related. Happier now?

A good discussion stops being a discussion when either party gets caught up in HAVING to be the one who's right.
Click to expand...

Not at all - I am simply interested in what should be recommended to newcomers about practising. I have always been advised in Jazz classes, to practice walking basslines with a metronome and I often get asked for advice by younger players in workshop situations - who for some reason assume that I know more than them as I am twice their age!!

So I don't want to give out bad advice, but also I can't see any alternative apart from metronome or drum machine . Playing along to records is OK, but doesn't help you with original compositions, for which there is no recording - I mentioned before on the board, how I was asked to play original tunes in 15/4 and 9/4 - without my drum machine I would not have been able to "get" these.

It's not a question of being wrong or right but rather of actually understanding what is being advised here - if playing with metronomes and drum machines is "bad" for your development as a musician, then I want to know about it!! I have little enough time for practice already and want to make the most of what time I can spare.
 
#53
Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield


Not at all - I am simply interested in what should be recommended to newcomers about practising. I have always been advised in Jazz classes, to practice walking basslines with a metronome and I often get asked for advice by younger players in workshop situations - who for some reason assume that I know more than them as I am twice their age!!

So I don't want to give out bad advice, but also I can't see any alternative apart from metronome or drum machine . Playing along to records is OK, but doesn't help you with original compositions, for which there is no recording - I mentioned before on the board, how I was asked to play original tunes in 15/4 and 9/4 - without my drum machine I would not have been able to "get" these.

It's not a question of being wrong or right but rather of actually understanding what is being advised here - if playing with metronomes and drum machines is "bad" for your development as a musician, then I want to know about it!! I have little enough time for practice already and want to make the most of what time I can spare.
Click to expand...

Of course, Bruce. I totally misinterpreted you.

A position you find yourself in quite frequently.

Pkr2
 
#54
Now POOHCAR, are we gonna havta change yer name to POUTER, TOO?

Well, as in the last Metronome Flame war, I think we are at a point where people who play different kinds of music have a different idea about what time is (and especially what good time is). Hence some guys talk about time, and some talk about "timing". Can we say that there is a conceptual difference of approach (to time) in a group that is playing Nirvana tunes and one that is playing the standard repertoire? And does that difference of approach call for a more refined sense of time/feel (and not timing ie making sure that everyone is simply playing their predefined part in its proper sequence and having it line up temporally with all the other predefined parts) in groups where nothing (except for the harmonic framework) is ever played twice the same way?
And even with the harmonic framework, the approach may be radically different from performance to performance (check out the MILES DAVIS QUINTET doing GREEN DOLPHIN STREET. First with PC, Philly Joe and Red Garland; then Bill Evans, PC and Jimmy Cobb; then Wayne, Herbie, Tony and Ron).

I am sure that Chris, reedo, Don, David and maybe a few other of the cats that I've corresponded with (and heard tapes of them playing) are coming from the same place I am because of similar experiences. And those experiences are that no matter how "together" somebody sounds in a rock or pop band, as soon as they get put in a situation that they have to create (not read or take off a record) a line that links a harmonic structure (and ESPECIALLY if they have to do it on a tune that they are not familiar with) AND create a solo over/through harmony, their time turns to sh*t. And they rush uncontrollably or they drag ballads. Because they have never practiced playing in time, just playing together.

Now we're all just typing here PO QIR, the only way for you to really make me change my opinion is for you and me to get together with a metronome and play through some tunes. barring that, how bout you send me a recording of you and either a guitarist or a horn player (no piano) and a metronome playing head and solos of three or four tunes. Your choice, but at least a couple of them need to be jazz standards...
 
#55
Very well worded, Ed.
The fact that you and I have differing opinions on the metronome thing is fine with me. I wont put you in a position where you feel a need to defend your opinion.

Opinion is the key word here. I made it absolutely clear that my post was ONLY my opinion. I'm not trying to change your mind and chances are pretty much against you changing mine.

So far as me recording with a jazz group and sending you a tape so you can judge whether I meet your standards. I can't believe you are serious.

I couldn't find three musicians in my circle that could accompany me.

If you are curious about my career, it's no secret. I started playing bluegrass and moved from bluegrass to bluegrass/country.

Played mostly bar gigs with musicians with no formal training. Played a two man gig called Bare Creek Orkestra for the past 8 years with a guy that introduced me to music like blues and a little rock.

Nope, never ran into any jazz players. If they had been my influence, I'd probably be a jazz musician. I probably wouldn't be any more,or less,a musician
because of the genre of music I chose, though.

By the way, I stand in some pretty strong company with my opinion.

If you would like to hear someone play that plays extremely well who doesn't agree with you , check out some of J.B's stuff.Does that sound like it came from someone who can't keep time?

I believe that about 90% of the people up here in BG are pretty much like me. I'm not in music to prove how smart I am because I can play something you can't. I play music because it makes me feel good. Period, no philosopy. I feel better when I do it well. I guess I was too busy playing music to be bothered with hours and hours of dry study. But, that's just me.

Your argument is as sound as dollar, Ed. Now, if you can find an argument, you're all set. :)


Pkr2
 
#56
Originally posted by pkr2


Sorry Bruce, you're right as usual.

I'm looking forward to you having your own forum.

Pkr2
Click to expand...


You mean you haven't seen it yet? Get with the program, man! Go there NOW...Do not pass go, do not collect $200. How could you possibly be so behind the times?

Bad Link Removed
 
#58
Originally posted by XavierG
Interestingly enough, my experience in a band situation is this - It seems that the bands I have been involved with always looked to the drummer for 'tempo-guidance'. What I found usually happened was that, if the drummer sped up (or slowed down) ever so slightly, everyone seemed to be able to adjust instantly. If that tempo change went over a certain 'acceptable' limit (which we subconsciously set, based on our internal clocks), we'd start glaring at the drummer. If that didn't work, someone would walk up to him and smack him on the head. The point? ... it takes a delicate balance between playing to an external and internal tempo to make it work in real life situations. But then again, what do I know? ;)
Click to expand...

I have been experiencing these last couple of weeks my various drummer hopefulls of watching me on bass and adjusting to me... which I didn't like... Being a newbie I have a tendancy to speed up over time.
 
#59
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#60
...so this is where all you guys have been hangin' out & having fun.
For your reading pleasure, here's a nugget from the brand new Bass Frontiers magazine...

Hey, Willis-
"Have you ever done anything specific to work on your time & feel"?

Gary Willis-
"Two things: Dynamics & metronome/drum machines...how you use the metronome is very important. If you can get a drum machine & use the closed hi-hat as a metronome, that's best. Snares, kicks, cymbals, toms-good drummers move those things around all over the place to make things interesting. The only thing you can count on is the hi-hat. Put the hi-hat on 2 & 4 or on the 'ands' of a groove & get used to hearing it between the stuff you play. That way, you learn to supply the downbeats & can develope your own sense of time that a band can rely on".


Like many 'here' have said before-
...YOU are responsible for YOUR time. YOU can't always depend on the drummer. Since YOU are responsible, what tool(s) are available for you to use when you're shedding?
 
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