Metronomes and Time/Rhythm Awareness

[Joe Nerve]

I agree with those who say that working with a metronome will not improve your internal time.

How can you say that when I (as well as thousands of others) can tell you that working with a metronome has improved my internal sense of time?

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that working with a metronome hasn't improved YOUR internal sense of time?

I also wonder if you ever committed to improving your sense of time with a metronome, or if your belief that it's useless guarantees your failure.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Nope. I am a strong advocate for practicing with a metronome. But I already outlined my reasoning in another thread which is why I made my comment about redundancy here.

I think the redundancy is all over our TB threads, like "Should I use a pick or not?", "Is slap obsolete", or "I hate Slap", "Why should I learn Music Harmony", etc...
Now.

My posting about MY (only) use of the metronome is slightly (or maybe) not just slightly different from the OTHER metronome supporters/advocates.

Once again.
I don't try to internalize some Abstract Tempo.
No, No, No.
The metronome helps me to internalize various subdivision at various tempos.
The metronome helps me to internalize various phrases at various tempos.

I reckon to be LAME some metronome exercises of playing something at Dramatically slow tempos.
WHY??? (But we had a multipage thread about it).

The metronome helps me to internalize this or that phrase(!) at this or that tempo!
The metronome helps me to properly adjust my note length nuances in order to create rhythmic movement, rhythmic "breathing", etc...
The notes in a bar/measure must be adjusted, and the metronome helps me to do that meticulous job.

Here is more.
I'm not a big supporter of "Just playing along with the metronome".
No.
The metronome must help me to work out the details of subdivisions, of motifs, phrases, etc...
Here is another thing.
I've read quite a few comments like, "I've used in the past the metronome; therefore, for anything NEW I don't need to use it anymore".
WRONG.
Many years ago, I new a lot about Windows 2000 Pro workstations, servers, domains, etc..., but it's all kind of gone today.
We have a new reality right now.
Let's continue.
I'm not a supporter of some "champion of perfect timing".
I'm not a supporter of some talent show where I must immediately give you the 136BPM tempo.
I do not need it.
I'm internalizing a measure, a phrase, a fill, a tutti, a passage, etc... at a SLOW/sometimes, very slow tempo.
My brain and my muscles remember that PHRASING, remember the note lengths, the rest/s(!!!), its lengths, etc...
I learn and internalize where I should perfectly place those notes (even the simple ones).
Next.
I have more requirements, like Dynamics.
I need to learn and internalize that simple phrase with the Dynamic requirements, MOOD and Character, and TONE requirements.
I don't practice some abstract timing.
I don't care if I can tell you immediately 97BPM or 117BPM, etc...
I'm working with the metronome to internalize this or that phrase, and, then, adjust my perfectly crafted phrase according to my environment - a drum machine, a click track, a live drummer etc...
Here is more.
Just because I do NOT internalize that abstract tempo but the PHRASE, I am capable of momentarily adjustments of minimal/tiny tempo variations.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I also wonder if you ever committed to improving your sense of time with a metronome, or if your belief that it's useless guarantees your failure.

A very nicely-crafted expression! Cool.

You are absolutely correct.
Just trying to play along with the metronome without doing some hard WORK, it could be less productive.
What I mean is this.
RECORD YOURSELF.
Start with a slower metronome tempo and RECORD yourself. You don't need to post it on Youtube and try to get some subscribers. Just record at slow tempo and listen at slow tempo.

N.B. Yes, it's possible that very very few people will not be able to discern/identify some rhythmic discrepancies.

 

[lfmn16]

N.B. I'd like to compare some of our TB members' expressions, "I've never used the metronome, and I don't need it", "I have a perfect sense of timing; therefore, the metronome is useless", etc...
to
"I feel OK; therefore, I don't need to check my blood pressure, my cholesterol level, etc...",
UNTIL that person gets a heart attack or a stroke, or some strange and abnormal cell growth...

Or, I don't know theory, the notes on my bass, or how to read music, but even if I did I wouldn't use that knowledge.

After all, Jimi Hendrix ...

 

[Bassbeater]

People who don't practice to metronomes, or who haven't dedicated a significant part of their musical education to develop fine timing are often pretty miserable in recording situations. There are exceptions, but in general this has been my experience.

 

[Turn Em Loose]

remember the note lengths, the rest/s(!!!), its lengths, etc...
I learn and internalize where I should perfectly place those notes (even the simple ones).

Wait. You manipulate the length of notes AND "play" rests? AND place notes on/ahead/behind the beat?? That's crazy talk right there.



I kid. I try to do the same thing.

Emphasis on "try."

 

[Turn Em Loose]

A very nicely-crafted expression! Cool.RECORD YOURSELF.
Start with a slower metronome tempo and RECORD yourself.

And/Or record yourself at the tempo you want to achieve and then slow it down to half speed. I've been doing this with URB and it's pretty freakin' painful. All you need is a cheap/free phone app.

 

[IamGroot]

People who dont believe in metronomes are a rarity in orchestras and college jazz bands.

 

[jallenbass]

How can you say that when I (as well as thousands of others) can tell you that working with a metronome has improved my internal sense of time?

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that working with a metronome hasn't improved YOUR internal sense of time?

I also wonder if you ever committed to improving your sense of time with a metronome, or if your belief that it's useless guarantees your failure.

A couple of clarifications. 1) I am a metronome proponent. 2) What I mean by not improving my sense of time is that my time is still wonky but after working with a metronome I can work around it. It's pure speculation on my part.

 

[IamGroot]

At one time, i did not believe in metronomes. But I was young and played lead guitar and I didnt hear any problems....

 

[Whousedtoplay]

And/Or record yourself at the tempo you want to achieve and then slow it down to half speed. I've been doing this with URB and it's pretty freakin' painful. All you need is a cheap/free phone app.

Yes, there are numerous ways of practicing with the metronome but in all the cases WORK is required!

after working with a metronome I can work around it.

You work on one particular phrase. If your own phrase does not sound good or does not fit time-wise at that particular tempo, maybe you need to adjust your tempo in order to properly deliver your excellent riff.
In short.
You have created a musical phrase, like some piece of furniture - your cool bass riff.
That piece of furniture -let's say a King-size bed - is just beautiful but...
It's too big in your small bedroom.
(Bedroom is like a Bar/Measure.)
That's when you start working and adjusting your phrase with the metronome.

Here is an example.
From the same duo - Till Bronner and Dieter Ilg.
It's their interpretation of Eleanor Rigby.
No drums; therefore, it's easy to hear lots of nuances - mood, character, attitude, etc... of the bass line.

Firstly, you create a phrase and beautify it - you know what you want, you have that aural image in your brain.
Next with the help of the metronome you make adjustments and refine it.

 

[Groove Doctor]

People who dont believe in metronomes are a rarity in orchestras and college jazz bands.

Exactly. It's hard enough getting 4 people to play in time together, let alone 15 people or 50 people.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Exactly. It's hard enough getting 4 people to play in time together

Currently, I'm listening to Nik Bartsch's RONIN compositions.
NO BIG MUSICIAN names, no GRAMMY AWARDS, but I really like it.

Nik Bärtsch: Piano, Fender Rhodes Kaspar Rast: Drums Thomy Jordi: Bass Sha: Bassclarinet, Altosax

Here is two versions of their "Module 35" composition - Studio and Live.
I'm just amazed how "tight" the band sounds live, how Dynamically the Band sounds and Dynamically develops the composition without LAME, "What OTHER notes could I play".
Try to feel the space between the notes, that "breathing", the bass fills, etc...
I could only imagine what our the best bass players would do/would mess up with the song's Mood, Character, attitude in order to say,
"Me, me, me".

Both compositions are long, please be careful my dear "C major Box" TB members.
Here is their live version.
Feel the "tightness" of the band.



Here is the same but STUDIO version.



Sorry, but I just love the band's rhythmic development.
Here is another composition.
It should start at the beginning somewhere in the middle.
Don't be afraid of Empty Space in bass line, or other instruments.



Module 45.
(Do you feel some polyrhythmic exercises?)

Please check the bass-line development.
You COMPOSE the bass line, you think about this or that note, tone, dynamics, etc...

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I really like bands like the following.
Just three musicians are creating interesting music.
As I've mentioned numerous times, the bass-line as a "second melody" must include elements of rhythm-harmonic-melodic compositional tools.
Depending on the song's requirements, composer's ideas, or the arranger's vision, sometime the rhythm part could be accentuated, sometimes, melodic, etc...
This thread is about the metronomes; therefore, let's listen to a few Elizabeth Shephard's - keyboard/Vocal/Composer - songs.
Scott Kemp on bass and Colin Kingsmore on drums.

Try a few bass lines/riffs to play with the Metronome.
Try to figure some elements of "displaced" accents in the bass, especially in Baby Steps.
Listen to dynamic articulation of the bass line.

 

[Jay Corwin]

Number one, if the metronome helps you identify lagging/leading of internal meter - then you should be concentrating on the metronome to improve that. Isn't that what it's there for by design for the most part? I've heard several players say things like, "either you have good time or you don't - it can't be taught" Total Hogwash. Musical skills can be learned or improved upon like any other skill that requires practice and concentration. Practicing to the 'nome does require a certain amount of discipline, because it's super boring.

 

[IamGroot]

I practiced my Jaco groove last night. "Come On, Come Over". The nome is my home.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Here is another Elizabeth Shepard's song.

A side note.
I like the song because there are no drums just the Double bass; therefore, it's easy to hear nuances.
I like listening to "LIVE" Double bass dynamically-articulated bass lines. I don't like "just dead notes" on the bass. Think about the bass line as a second melody, but...
It's NOT because you play some pure MELODY. It's all about the WAY you perform that line - tone, dynamics, articulation, melismata, vibrato, bending, etc...

I would (firstly) create and refine a bass line (like the bass player did), then I would work with the METRONOME to internalize that line at this/that (slow/very slow/normal) tempo.
After I have internalized - my brain and muscles know how to render that bass line, I'm ready for any "environmental" challenges - the click in the studio, no click with a good drummer, or NO drummer, but...
I must deliver that line with expression, mood, character, dynamics, etc... with the click, without a click, with a drummer, without a drummer, and the METRONOME helps me tremendously to internalized it!
I've listened to so much BS (in my opinion) about that "bad" and unnecessary Metronome. One of the reasons was given,
"A live drummer is not a mechanical metronome".
Two things about that statement.

1. What if that drummer plays with the click?
I've done it for years without any lost EMOTIONS, FEEL, etc...

2. Unless the drummer (without a click) is "fluctuating" too much tempo-wise, I'm ready instantly make tiny adjustments to my solidly internalized (due to the metronome) phrase, line to meet the drummer's and other rhythm group musicians minute timing imperfections, but...

As we can hear in the following song, the tempo is not mechanically-metronomic - it varies between 64BPM and 67BPM, but the line is perfectly rendered with all the assigned requirements - mood, character, tone, attitude, etc...

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Let's get back to our normal grooving (easy), "average" bass guitar lines, and use the "Average White Band" song, "Ask your Doctor" from the new album, "Inside out".
The song is recorded with the click - constant 89BMP.
I would set my metronome at 45BPM (and would go slowly up in tempo) in order to obtain that "feel" of the note lengths and dynamics, but...
A few of my notes for that repetitious bass riff.
I would play a little bit longer the first G (quarter) note with a "touch" of vibrato (it's not too difficult with my left hand pinkie on the 3rd fret of the E string)
- minimum as the 8th and the 16th tied but with clearly pronounced rest before the drum snare.
Also, my F note on Beat 4 would be a little bit longer (and with a touch of vibrato) - it's just my interpretation of similar rhythmic constructions.
In addition, please check the that hammer-on(it's only my opinion) of Bb to B natural on Beat 4 in the second measure of the 2-bar riff.

The METRONOME would help me to internalize it.
I would not listen to ANYBODY in the world telling me NOT to practice with the metronome.
While practicing with the metronome at 45BPM, I would mentally subdivide Beats into shuffled16th's notes/16th note triplets.
I mean practicing with the metronome, not some beautiful but "aurally-messy" drum pattern with lots of percussions obscuring my bass note lengths.

Here is that song.


Here are four bars/measures of that 2-bar bass riff at a 50% of the regular tempo and "distilled" by Transcribe.
https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...0/?temp_hash=bff02d0cef6919ed025d4364cfdab182

N.B. I've found the same song, Ask your Doctor covered by James Brown is Annie(?).



Here are the same 4 bars/measures of the 2-bar bass riff. Pay attention to the slightly changed bass riff.
The first note is LONGER as I would have played it but I don't hear a clearly pronounced cut-off of that bass note - the needed rest - before the snare.
It's not good in my world!
Also, there is no Bb to B natural hammer-on (or slide/bend).

Think about the bass-line as a second melody; therefore, a melody must have nuances.

https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...6/?temp_hash=bff02d0cef6919ed025d4364cfdab182

 

[Whousedtoplay]

A long "Anti-Metronome" article.

"In MHO, absolutely not! Why? Because a metronome clicking is not a pulse. What is a pulse anyway? The sound of your heart beating. It produces a throbbing, pumping kind of feeling as opposed to the monotonous, soulless clicking of a metronome. All of the great jazz musicians of the past such as Dizzy, Charlie Parker, Cannonball, John Coltrane, Erroll Garner, etc., display this kind of sound in their time keeping.
One of my former students, Adam Rafferty, who refers to me as his "mentor", created quite a controversy on many of the internet jazz chat rooms with an article he wrote advising people not to use a metronome when they practice. He, of course, learned that concept from me when he was my student..."

Read here.

Invalid Link Removed

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Here is another short read about timekeeping issues.

"Psychological Interferences.

An article on timekeeping and rhythm wouldn't be complete without touching on psychological interferences, which are the way we manage impulses and moods that arise prior to, or during, a performance.
Nervousness, stage fright, lack of interest in the music, insecurity, being too relaxed or too excited are just a few factors that can be detrimental to good time and rhythm. For instance, it is not unusual for musicians to rush when the music gets more intense and exciting.
The year I graduated from Berklee, the commencement speech was given by no less than bass legend Mr. Ron Carter. One thing he stressed was the importance of keeping your center while performing, because getting too emotionally involved with the music could affect your performance negatively. To this day I still find myself thinking about that statement from time to time. I was always drawn by artists who get lost in the moment at the cost of making mistakes. To me, that state of being always seemed to be the best in music, so I had to figure out what balance I wanted to strive for and what to make of Ron Carter's words. The process of thinking about it helped me understand many things about my own playing.
The most easily recognizable emotional states are excitement, anger and tension, but there are subtler feelings that one may overlook, and they do affect one's performance..."
From here:
Invalid Link Removed