Metronomes and Time/Rhythm Awareness

[JeffBerlin]

With all of the Talkbass metronome threads going on in I wasn't sure where I should put this so I started yet another one.

[Content deleted due to my lack of forethought]. I also agree that without knowing your instrument and/or the music that you're playing accurate time is nearly impossible.

However, using a metronome will identify your tendencies. All or most of us have tendencies when it comes to time. Some are aware of theirs and some are not.

From using a metronome I know that I have a propensity to rush especially when there are rests and syncopation. I know that I will always have this inclination but I'm able to hear it and keep it under control. I also know that I will never be as accurate as a metronome but that isn't the goal. Awareness is the goal.

Hello! This is a topic that I am familiar with.

Metronomes don't help to identify one's tendencies in time because a metronome doesn't represent anything that is real in the performance of music. It also doesn't help when learning how to play an exercise or a new piece of music because learning is always best done out of time.

Anyone with time issues generally have them because they don't have a lot of live playing experience and/or they don't know how to play the bass very well. This is why reading music is so important; literally everything important to acquire as a bass player can be found if you practice reading. The better that you read, the better your time will be. And the more that you play with players who have already done the work that you are presently engaged in, the more that your time will improve. I view using the metronome as a myth that might be popular with bass players, but really can't help improve one's sense of time as most bass players don't have time issues. They have playing issues in that they don't play enough and with the right guys. Plus, most bass players haven't been taught correctly either. Solve these two issues and everyone's time will improve.

Cheers!

 

[JeffBerlin]

Here is another short read about timekeeping issues.

"Psychological Interferences.

An article on timekeeping and rhythm wouldn't be complete without touching on psychological interferences, which are the way we manage impulses and moods that arise prior to, or during, a performance.
Nervousness, stage fright, lack of interest in the music, insecurity, being too relaxed or too excited are just a few factors that can be detrimental to good time and rhythm. For instance, it is not unusual for musicians to rush when the music gets more intense and exciting.
The year I graduated from Berklee, the commencement speech was given by no less than bass legend Mr. Ron Carter. One thing he stressed was the importance of keeping your center while performing, because getting too emotionally involved with the music could affect your performance negatively. To this day I still find myself thinking about that statement from time to time. I was always drawn by artists who get lost in the moment at the cost of making mistakes. To me, that state of being always seemed to be the best in music, so I had to figure out what balance I wanted to strive for and what to make of Ron Carter's words. The process of thinking about it helped me understand many things about my own playing.
The most easily recognizable emotional states are excitement, anger and tension, but there are subtler feelings that one may overlook, and they do affect one's performance..."
From here:
Invalid Link Removed

Hello! I read the article and noticed that it doesn't talk about learning music. What this article doesn't mention is that before anyone can play anything in time no matter what it is, they have to first know what the notes are and how to play them.

Thanks for reading.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

The better that you read, the better your time will be.

Dear Jeff,

Here is what I got from your statement,
"A bass player who cannot READ will have TERRIBLE time".
In short.
If you don't READ MUSIC, you timekeeping SUCKS.

Could you, please, tell me if I'm wrong?

As always, thank you for a very nice conversation.

 

[jallenbass]

"I have at times used a metronome on 2 and 4. I get depressed when I do it because I rush. Playing with a metronome on 2 and 4 does help." -Michael Brecker

Here's that YouTube link where he says this:

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Hello! I read the article and noticed that it doesn't talk about learning music. What this article doesn't mention is that before anyone can play anything in time no matter what it is, they have to first know what the notes are and how to play them.

Thanks for reading.

N.B. I don't want to copy and paste the whole article. It got me in trouble in the past.

I've posted a comment with a link (#59) to a very lengthy "anti-metronome" article written by a very good Jazz musician, Mike Longo.
I did it just make sure that I am not BIASED. (I am practicing with the Metronome and NOBODY, even 3 million people won't persuade me otherwise. Also, I have my favorite colors for the kitchen, living room, etc... and argue even with my wife.)

The article you have quoted was, more or less, "pro-metronome" opinion, and, of course, does not offer a walking bass course, or "Playing Bach on the electric bass" class.

Your quoted article is more like "fair and balanced" report by WUTP who used to play.
Here is more from that article.

"As a developing musician, improving your time and rhythm is one of the most important technical aspects to prioritize, regardless of what instrument you play. After all, it is thanks to time that we can make sense of music, and if we didn't organize it in some fashion (rhythm), all we would hear would be a random collection of sounds.
When I say that time and rhythm are the "foundations of musical expression" I mean that, despite all the structures we have created (genres, styles, feels, etc.), music is still just the convergence of two things: what and when."
"Even when a musician is playing rubato – which may seem like an exception to the rule – in reality he is using time as a dynamic tool: he is manipulating the perception of time in order to create an emotional reaction. That's achieved thanks to great control of rhythm and, of course, artistic maturity."

By the way, the author of that article is
Paolo is a drummer, team member, ensemble instructor and the director at NY Ensemble Classes.
NY Ensemble Classes - is a jazz school located in New York City, in the heart of Manhattan. We teach ensemble classes in a very special way, like no one else in the city.

As you can see, that Jazz school also claims about a "very special way (the one and only)" of teaching Jazz like no one else in New York City.
I have NO idea how good or how bad that school is, but...
Here is more from that article.

"It all begins from the basics: rhythmic accuracy. If your rhythm is inaccurate it means that you are lacking clarity, and your general timing will suffer from it. Practicing the following can help.
Rhythmic fluency – Being able to play different rhythms (such as quarter notes, eighth notes, triplets of different kinds, quadruplets, quintuplets, and so forth) and being able to incorporate those rhythms in a dynamic musical fashion are two different things. The difference is in the process. To find out how good your rhythmic fluency is, test yourself by playing improvised mixed rhythms with a metronome and see if you can keep your pulse steady. The flow of different rhythmic ideas should be ideally bump-free. If not, isolate the rhythms or combinations of rhythms that you couldn't play accurately, and practice them until they feel comfortable, then try this exercise again.
Similarly, Dynamic Fluency is an important and sometimes overlooked skill. Experiment with performing music while improvising varied dynamic levels, ranging from ppp to fff. Perform a mix of those dynamics the same way you did for the previous exercise. For example, a combination could be mf, ppp, ff, mp, fff. You may find that some of these transitions affect your sense of time. On most instruments playing very soft or very loud require technical adjustments, look into it.
Practicing Extreme Tempos – Being able to play well at 150 bpm doesn't mean that you have good time if you drag or rush at 190 bpm. Practice all tempos, from very slow to very fast. Playing extremely slow requires dedication and patience, but it pays off. Some care is required with fast tempos; let your current technical level determine how far you can take it. If you can't play correctly, then it's too fast: it serves no one to play incredibly fast sloppy music!
Knowing the tempos – Once, master drummer Kenwood Dennard put my sense of time to the test. He asked me to play at different tempos without checking with a metronome or counting me in. The test was to see how close I would get to the actual mark. It's good to know tempos by heart and be able to get very close to guessing actual beats per minute. This may seem like a nerdy approach, but if you have a good notion of how fast 175 bpm is, it will help you to keep your time in check while playing. You can work on it with a simple game; set the metronome on your smartphone to any tempo, then guess how fast it is (count beats in your head, tap a foot, snap your fingers) before starting it. Verify how close you got and try again with a different tempo. It's a subway time killer, no pun intended."

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Here is an article commenting on Mike Longo's "anti-metronome" statement.
By Dr. Wilken - a music educator and professional musician.


"I feel the real question to consider is whether or not metronome practice needs to be all or nothing. What does a metronome provide for your practice? It's good at two things – getting your tempo correct in the first place and then providing feedback as to whether your tempo is remaining consistent. I prefer to think of a metronome as a "spotter" for your time feel. Once you've reached a point where you have a good idea of your tempo and have consistent tempo on the music you're playing you turn the metronome off. Can a musician develop a static and unmusical groove by overpracticing with a metronome? Perhaps, but I don't think that this happens to any great degree. On the other hand, the feedback that metronome practice can provide to musicians, particularly less experienced ones or even experienced ones working on challenging material, makes for a valuable tool. In my daily teaching (and performing, to a lesser degree) I come across more cases of musicians who drag or rush than players with a stiff groove.

If you can swing with a metronome click as your "rhythm section," just think of how hard you will swing with a real one..."

Practicing With a Metronome – Wilktone

P.S. Just a note. The same Mike Longo writes,
(Mike Longo is NOT totally against the Metronomes.)


"First of all, my (anti-metronome- WUTP) article was specifically about jazz music. Not so much about pop or other music played to a click track. Here is the main point I would like to make. Dizzy Gillespie once made a point about the role of body rhythm being an important factor overlooked by many jazz educators.

 

[JeffBerlin]

N.B. I don't want to copy and paste the whole article. It got me in trouble in the past.

I've posted a comment with a link (#59) to a very lengthy "anti-metronome" article written by a very good Jazz musician, Mike Longo.
I did it just make sure that I am not BIASED. (I am practicing with the Metronome and NOBODY, even 3 million people won't persuade me otherwise. Also, I have my favorite colors for the kitchen, living room, etc... and argue even with my wife.)

The article you have quoted was, more or less, "pro-metronome" opinion, and, of course, does not offer a walking bass course, or "Playing Bach on the electric bass" class.

Your quoted article is more like "fair and balanced" report by WUTP who used to play.
Here is more from that article.

"As a developing musician, improving your time and rhythm is one of the most important technical aspects to prioritize, regardless of what instrument you play. After all, it is thanks to time that we can make sense of music, and if we didn't organize it in some fashion (rhythm), all we would hear would be a random collection of sounds.
When I say that time and rhythm are the "foundations of musical expression" I mean that, despite all the structures we have created (genres, styles, feels, etc.), music is still just the convergence of two things: what and when."
"Even when a musician is playing rubato – which may seem like an exception to the rule – in reality he is using time as a dynamic tool: he is manipulating the perception of time in order to create an emotional reaction. That's achieved thanks to great control of rhythm and, of course, artistic maturity."

By the way, the author of that article is
Paolo is a drummer, team member, ensemble instructor and the director at NY Ensemble Classes.
NY Ensemble Classes - is a jazz school located in New York City, in the heart of Manhattan. We teach ensemble classes in a very special way, like no one else in the city.

As you can see, that Jazz school also claims about a "very special way (the one and only)" of teaching Jazz like no one else in New York City.
I have NO idea how good or how bad that school is, but...
Here is more from that article.

"It all begins from the basics: rhythmic accuracy. If your rhythm is inaccurate it means that you are lacking clarity, and your general timing will suffer from it. Practicing the following can help.
Rhythmic fluency – Being able to play different rhythms (such as quarter notes, eighth notes, triplets of different kinds, quadruplets, quintuplets, and so forth) and being able to incorporate those rhythms in a dynamic musical fashion are two different things. The difference is in the process. To find out how good your rhythmic fluency is, test yourself by playing improvised mixed rhythms with a metronome and see if you can keep your pulse steady. The flow of different rhythmic ideas should be ideally bump-free. If not, isolate the rhythms or combinations of rhythms that you couldn't play accurately, and practice them until they feel comfortable, then try this exercise again.
Similarly, Dynamic Fluency is an important and sometimes overlooked skill. Experiment with performing music while improvising varied dynamic levels, ranging from ppp to fff. Perform a mix of those dynamics the same way you did for the previous exercise. For example, a combination could be mf, ppp, ff, mp, fff. You may find that some of these transitions affect your sense of time. On most instruments playing very soft or very loud require technical adjustments, look into it.
Practicing Extreme Tempos – Being able to play well at 150 bpm doesn't mean that you have good time if you drag or rush at 190 bpm. Practice all tempos, from very slow to very fast. Playing extremely slow requires dedication and patience, but it pays off. Some care is required with fast tempos; let your current technical level determine how far you can take it. If you can't play correctly, then it's too fast: it serves no one to play incredibly fast sloppy music!
Knowing the tempos – Once, master drummer Kenwood Dennard put my sense of time to the test. He asked me to play at different tempos without checking with a metronome or counting me in. The test was to see how close I would get to the actual mark. It's good to know tempos by heart and be able to get very close to guessing actual beats per minute. This may seem like a nerdy approach, but if you have a good notion of how fast 175 bpm is, it will help you to keep your time in check while playing. You can work on it with a simple game; set the metronome on your smartphone to any tempo, then guess how fast it is (count beats in your head, tap a foot, snap your fingers) before starting it. Verify how close you got and try again with a different tempo. It's a subway time killer, no pun intended."

Thank you for sharing. I did read the article and saw these suggestions listed just above. My view is that little here counts with either learning or playing as bass players count off a song and play it to the best of their ability.

A couple of points to raise:

Dynamic Fluency doesn't help people to play with dynamics because there isn't much in the way of using them if the music or exercise doesn't call for it. Improvising as well has its set of requirements to use this skill, but dynamics aren't included in this.

Electric bass players tend to stick to one level of volume throughout a song (with an occasional rubato or slight softening.) There's very little to practice that will have any affect on your bass playing. Also, dynamics also doesn't have anything to do with time.

Knowing the Tempos doesn't require much focus. Just know what tempo you intend to play at.

Rhythmic Fluency requires learning rhythms. Rhythms newly practiced are always best practiced out of time, by the way.

I wanted to share with you that teachers always mean well when they share their thoughts. But, they often seek to over explain something that simply doesn't require it.

Anyway, thank you for commenting and for reading my thoughts.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

"I have at times used a metronome on 2 and 4. I get depressed when I do it because I rush. Playing with a metronome on 2 and 4 does help." -Michael Brecker

Here's that YouTube link where he says this:

I'd like to post Dr. Wildtone's reply to one of Mike Longo's comment.

Mike Longo really reminds me somebody from TB.

"...most of your (Mike Longo's) arguments against using a metronome really are red herrings and don't address the pros and cons of metronome use at all(! - WUTP.)
Most of your evidence comes down to "because you say it is so (! - WUTP)."

 

[JeffBerlin]

Dear Jeff,

Here is what I got from your statement,
"A bass player who cannot READ will have TERRIBLE time".
In short.
If you don't READ MUSIC, you timekeeping SUCKS.

Could you, please, tell me if I'm wrong?

As always, thank you for a very nice conversation.

What I am saying is that if a bass player who is looking to improve their bass playing is immersed in reading music, their time will improve. If they aren't then they don't have much to learn about time from except to be involved in a self taught experience. This experience is a tough one to chew on because

1. it created literally 100% of every bass player that you ever listened to, and

2. It never made clear how to improve as a bass player by tens of thousands of other players.

What this means is that the only trustworthy method to improve one's playing is to practice reading quality music and harmonic exercises because among other things, eventually we all have to play this music in time.

 

[JeffBerlin]

"I have at times used a metronome on 2 and 4. I get depressed when I do it because I rush. Playing with a metronome on 2 and 4 does help." -Michael Brecker

Here's that YouTube link where he says this:

It happens! Just not for most players.

 

[SLO Surfer]

Oh. Now I get all the recent post's floating around TB regarding Jeff Berlin's thoughts.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Dynamic Fluency doesn't help people to play with dynamics because there isn't much in the way of using them if the music or exercise doesn't call for it.

Thank you for your answer, but...
From my "hard work with Classical Music" upbringing, I'd like to see Classical Music without Dynamics!

Electric bass players tend to stick to one level of volume throughout a song

Not in my world. Music has so much Dynamic nuances for any musician. It's all about those NUANCES; otherwise, we get some MECHANICAL music, and I don't like it at all.

dynamics also doesn't have anything to do with time.

We are different, dear Jeff. I can talk for hours about psychological/emotional impact on my performance on stage due to various situations; therefore, I'm just envy that you have "nerves made of steel" and NOTHING can affect you.
I'm jealous.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

What I am saying is that if a bass player who is looking to improve their bass playing is immersed in reading music, their time will improve. If they aren't then they don't have much to learn about time from except to be involved in a self taught experience. This experience is a tough one to chew on because

1. it created literally 100% of every bass player that you ever listened to, and

2. It never made clear how to improve as a bass player by tens of thousands of other players.

What this means is that the only trustworthy method to improve one's playing is to practice reading quality music and harmonic exercises because among other things, eventually we all have to play this music in time.

Jeff, one of your "anti-metronome" statements always include some examples of Oriental drumming practiced and played without a metronome, followed by your, "You see, those drum players don't have a metronome but their timing is perfect".
Cool, but...
Most probably, the same drum players do NOT know how to read Music, but according to you, their timekeeping sense is perfect...

 

[jallenbass]

The most important reason for practising with a metronome is to keep you slow. As string players, we are always engaged in multitasking and if you leave out any of these tasks, the music and technique both suffer. Being able to think of as many tasks as possible is one of the main reasons why it's important to practise slowly. It is a proven fact that the more tasks you are able to perform at the same time, the quicker you will benefit from the process of osmosis. Because we all have the tendency to play too fast, we need an outside influence to keep us slow.
Gary Karr, The Strad, July 2010

 

[jallenbass]

"It goes without saying that at some stage of development, (the earlier the better), everyone must practice scales, arpeggios, lines, patterns and so on with the metronome executing the material accurately in time. For jazz, it is best to immediately get used to the metronome marking off the second and fourth beat of a 4/4 bar. After doing that reasonably well at tempos ranging from slow to very fast, I urge the student to use the metronome more creatively in different parts of the bar, for example only the fourth beat, or only the upbeat of three, or the upbeat of one, etc. The idea is that a musician can get very loose and confident in relations to feeling all four beats without being tied down to one, two, three, four. Great drummers are not always going to be that obvious when they are playing at the height of their creative game. You wouldn't want to ask Jack DeJonette to please make sure that he gives you the one of the bar every eight measures!! I remember the wonderful drummer Pete La Rocca, who was my very first mentor back in 1969 saying that for him every beat was a one. In other words there was no four/four.….it was just one, one, one, one, meaning accents could appear anywhere in the bar. In any case every musician should get friendly with the metronome. Once this is accomplished it can be put away forever at least in this regimented and rigid aspect." -Dave Liebman

Find it here: Jazz Rhythm | David Liebman

 

[JeffBerlin]

Jeff, one of your "anti-metronome" statements always include some examples of Oriental drumming practiced and played without a metronome, followed by your, "You see, those drum players don't have a metronome but their timing is perfect".
Cool, but...
Most probably, the same drum players do NOT know how to read Music, but according to you, their timekeeping sense is perfect...

Drummers as I described are self taught in their art. I include being self taught as a manner to improve as a player because 100% of all bass players that anyone can think of have a great portion of their playing skills acquired by being self taught.

Musicians from Asia, Africa, indiginous people of the entire Americas, in fact, every ethnicity where a musical style was produced that is unique to that society, were all self taught or taught by being in the style.

But when you read music, you are automatically required to subdivide the rhythms of the music you are playing. Being involved in subdivision promotes a sense of time because you can't subdivide written music without it.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Thank you for your answer, but...
From my "hard work with Classical Music" upbringing, I'd like to see Classical Music without Dynamics!



Not in my world. Music has so much Dynamic nuances for any musician. It's all about those NUANCES; otherwise, we get some MECHANICAL music, and I don't like it at all.



We are different, dear Jeff. I can talk for hours about psychological/emotional impact on my performance on stage due to various situations; therefore, I'm just envy that you have "nerves made of steel" and NOTHING can affect you.
I'm jealous.

Classical music isn't the same kind of music as music where an electric bass is used. Because classical music requires a complete ability to read music, written into the parts are dynamic markings that makes the music have more tonal flavor and variety. Electric bass players rarely requires such dynamic use in what they play, at least no much beyond loud and soft. Electric bass music requires such a limited use of dynamics that to practice dynamically without a musical reason is silly. In my opinion, it is another philosophy of the electric bass educational system that appears more of a myth.

You are combining different musical genres to explain the use of a manner of playing that fits one genre of music, but doesn't fit well in other genres where the electric bass is use. Not really!

 

[JeffBerlin]

The most important reason for practising with a metronome is to keep you slow. As string players, we are always engaged in multitasking and if you leave out any of these tasks, the music and technique both suffer. Being able to think of as many tasks as possible is one of the main reasons why it's important to practise slowly. It is a proven fact that the more tasks you are able to perform at the same time, the quicker you will benefit from the process of osmosis. Because we all have the tendency to play too fast, we need an outside influence to keep us slow.
Gary Karr, The Strad, July 2010

I will have to disagree. There is no physical function of time that precludes a rushed performance such as might require an outside device such as a metronome to keep one playing at a slow tempo. In fact, it would be way harder to rush a piece of music as classical students are often in the stages of learning. Learning requires first figuring out the notes. In classical music, it is hard to rush any piece of music if one isn't sure how to play it.

I played violin for ten years. I was once a symphony violinist at the regional level. I know very well the manner that classical musicians are trained. No one had to think of many tasks at the same time. It simply doesn't exist. As a musician grew in musical skills, new principles of playing were introduced by the teachers to be practiced. One or two at a time. There never existed a multi task requirement that demanded that a metronome keeps one slowed down to deal with the various requirements of playing classical music. This simply didn't exist.

 

[jallenbass]

"One interesting thing to do practicing in 7 is to set the metronome to half notes, so it will alternate between the downbeat and upbeat every other bar." -Brad Mehldau from The Brad Mehldau Interview, Ithaca Journal, Gannett, waitingforsupermanblog.com, 8th December 2011

 

[jallenbass]

Jazz vibraphonist and longtime Berklee educator Gary Burton suggests practicing with a metronome in order to develop a steady sense of pulse. "I don't think it matters when the clicks happen," Burton says, "although in a straight-eighth-note feel, clicks on every beat or on beats one and three would be best. -From Berklee Today