Double Bass Mic/Full Circle comparisons for live sound

[Ric Vice]

: OTOH The AMT on gigs has never worked very well for me. I'm trying some new mounting things with it and haven't kicked it to the curb yet. But I might after trying some dynamics.

Phil,
Does this mean that the AMT works great as a recording mic for you
and not so great in a live performance? When you have to play a large
concert do you just use the Full Circle for yourself and let the sound tech
mic it his way?

:
I tried a Sure SM57, SM58, AKG D112 and the AMT. The D112 is hard to mount usefully and is to boomy unless on a stand a foot or two away. The 57 sounded decent but had a weird spike or transient in it. The 58 was best of the 3 but still not as detailed as the AMT.

What I was hoping was that I could send the AMT to the mains and
get a better sound in the mix.

Ric

 

[Ric Vice]

Ric - actually, I don't know that the Beta is really any better than the AMT, but it's way less hassle and expense, and it's damn hard to break one. There may well be smaller versions around that will do a nice job, but I think the size of the handheld dynamics is a great asset because of the way the tail end fits perfectly between the strings in the afterlength.

Chris,
I gather from what you are saying that the AMT can be a pain in the __.
It's hard to get excited about a mic that cost that much and is futsy. My main concern with the 57's is that you may be placing a good deal of extra weight on the tailpiece. I'm not sure what effect that would have in the long run on my 5/8 French Bass. But you sure have come up with a simple solution if it will work. Thanks.

I played a live recording session last night, and the sound engineer liked the placement of the Beta so well that he just decided that he couldn't do any better in a live setting and took the feed from the Focus straight into the board. My only regret about the result is that I didn't have a DI box or two with me so I could have sent the mic and pickup signals to seperate channels and mix later.

You gotta love that

 

[Uncletoad]

Phil,
Does this mean that the AMT works great as a recording mic for you
and not so great in a live performance? When you have to play a large
concert do you just use the Full Circle for yourself and let the sound tech
mic it his way?

What I was hoping was that I could send the AMT to the mains and
get a better sound in the mix.

Sorry. I wasn't very clear there.

I don't record much but when I do engineers have mixed a bunch of different mics with my direct line. The AMT has been used in some sessions but not all. Big tube Neumans smoke the AMT.

Live when I'm playing bigger venues If I have the luxury of two channels I have often used the full circle through a preamp/DI to the Front of house and into the woods/VL208 on stage. Separately I send the AMT to front of house only.

When they only give me one channel I tend to use either the full circle/preamp DI (summit at this point) direct to FOH by itself, or a mix of AMT/Full Circle via the Woods or through the Raven PMB II out to FOH.

I have never just used the AMT by itself.

The tone I go for is like 80% direct and 20% mic/ambient. The mic is icing on the cake and can easily be disregarded for time or efficiency.

The majority of my gigs get pretty loud and when the band is real loud the AMT won't work onstage. Not enough signal before feedback. To much bleed. I'd be surprised if the dynamic mics would work either. If I could get one to work I'd be thrilled. The Full Circle gets a bit "fretless bass" sounding without the mic. The mic adds the air and top end and the sound of "the bass" to the pickup signal making it sound like itself.

I spend a lot of time and energy on that 20%. It's kinda stupid.

 

[Ric Vice]

Sorry. I wasn't very clear there.



The tone I go for is like 80% direct and 20% mic/ambient. The mic is icing on the cake and can easily be disregarded for time or efficiency.

The majority of my gigs get pretty loud and when the band is real loud the AMT won't work onstage. Not enough signal before feedback. To much bleed. I'd be surprised if the dynamic mics would work either. If I could get one to work I'd be thrilled. The Full Circle gets a bit "fretless bass" sounding without the mic. The mic adds the air and top end and the sound of "the bass" to the pickup signal making it sound like itself.

I spend a lot of time and energy on that 20%. It's kinda stupid.

Phil,
Thanks for the reply. Things are clearer now. I don't think that spending time on that 20% is "kinda stupid" it's more like "kinda smart" even though it is a lot of work. That's ideally what I want. I spent several years fussing with the first Fishman Bass Blender and that Crown mini mic, and I loved the sound of a mic blended with the pickup. Actually, I liked the sound of just the mic better, but as you say it just wasn't powerful enougn .
What I didn't like was hauling around that extra piece and dealing with the power supply or batteries. I was hoping that the AMT would
be simpler than that but from what I'm hearing from you and Chris it's
just as complicated, and more expensive.

Ric

 

[Johnny L]

Unfortunately for me, I have to get my 80% together first before I tackle that last 20%! LOL

For me, I have a little Carvin PA and a mic preamp in my arsenal...both which offer phantom power. Part of one's situation depends on what one already has, understands how to use, wants to get one's money's worth through, and is willing to hassle over.

I did read also that with condenser mics some folks had better success in live situations by changing out some component that made them hypercardio instead of plain jane cardio (don't know what that stuff means exactly yet except that it manipulates the mic's search pattern).

 

[Uncletoad]

Just done practicing and messing about with gear in my space. Borrowed a friends Sennheiser 609. In a word, Yikes.

Really decent sounding mic. I remember Lord Fuqua uses its older sibling the 409. Guess I should pay more attention when he's talking.

It's my current top of the list at the moment. Yes, above the AMT. AMT sounds more "natural", but this 609 works better. More gain before feedback, nice even rich tone. Sounds very near my bass. Mixes well with the Full Circle.

Easy install. I took two rubber bands off of some asparagus in the fridge, wrapped them around each side of the bridge so there were two loops coming at the mic from either side. Slipped them both around the mic stem, then took a mic cable and wound the thing from the endpin up around the tailpiece three times plugged in the XLR and pulled the whole thing tight. It sits suspended and never touches a thing. doesn't move around at all.

I've got a few more to try out as I collect them from my buddies. On my list are a Beta 57, a Sennheiser 421 and 441. An older AKG D12E.

 

[Uncletoad]

Two more views.

 

[larry]

I took two rubber bands off of some asparagus in the fridge

Dear God, man. What's holding your asparagus together?

 

[TheSuzie]

Oh yea and that cheapy mic transformer from Radio Shack works nicely into the Woods. Better than I would have thought. I like it better than the sound of the AMT super pre into the same input. Coulda saved some money not buying that super preamp.

Bet that is because the Woods own pre can put out some serious gain without getting noisy. IME in the studio some dynamics like the 57 and 58 can require serious preamp gain unless the source is really loud (like a guitar cab or a kick drum) - put those mics in a situation with a softer source and ability of your preamp to produce clean gain will be sorely tested. Try the same trick with a lesser amp than the Woods and it may not sound very good without an outboard pre. I know from experience because I have a couple of those cheapy transformers and have used them with a few different amps. I have also found that a lot of mixing board preamps don't really produce enough clean gain to get the best sound out of an SM57/58 from lower volume sources. YMMV

Peace,
S


Peace,
S

 

[shwashwa]

Just done practicing and messing about with gear in my space. Borrowed a friends Sennheiser 609. In a word, Yikes.

Really decent sounding mic. I remember Lord Fuqua uses its older sibling the 409. Guess I should pay more attention when he's talking.

It's my current top of the list at the moment. Yes, above the AMT. AMT sounds more "natural", but this 609 works better. More gain before feedback, nice even rich tone. Sounds very near my bass. Mixes well with the Full Circle.

Easy install. I took two rubber bands off of some asparagus in the fridge, wrapped them around each side of the bridge so there were two loops coming at the mic from either side. Slipped them both around the mic stem, then took a mic cable and wound the thing from the endpin up around the tailpiece three times plugged in the XLR and pulled the whole thing tight. It sits suspended and never touches a thing. doesn't move around at all.

I've got a few more to try out as I collect them from my buddies. On my list are a Beta 57, a Sennheiser 421 and 441. An older AKG D12E.

View attachment 37271

View attachment 37272

that's pretty sweet!

you dont think the rubber bands are tight enough to move the bridge feet if left on for a long period of time do you?

 

[Uncletoad]

that's pretty sweet!

you dont think the rubber bands are tight enough to move the bridge feet if left on for a long period of time do you?

I can't imagine that. Double Bass downward string pressure is exponentially higher than the strength required to keep asparagus together in an icebox.

 

[Uncletoad]

Dear God, man. What's holding your asparagus together?

There is always a high price to be paid for the advancement of musical priorities.

In this case the afformentioned asparagus were committed to execution via fatman piehole.

One must sometimes sacrifice for the greater good.

 

[Ric Vice]

There is always a high price to be paid for the advancement of musical priorities.

In this case the afformentioned asparagus were committed to execution via fatman piehole.

One must sometimes sacrifice for the greater good.

Help Me! Help Me!

 

[larry]

I suggest a thread comparing the sonic effects of using asparagus rubber bands vs pony tail rubber bands, regular rubber bands, etc.

 

[robgrow]

Just done practicing and messing about with gear in my space. Borrowed a friends Sennheiser 609. In a word, Yikes.

Really decent sounding mic. I remember Lord Fuqua uses its older sibling the 409. Guess I should pay more attention when he's talking.

It's my current top of the list at the moment. Yes, above the AMT. AMT sounds more "natural", but this 609 works better. More gain before feedback, nice even rich tone. Sounds very near my bass. Mixes well with the Full Circle.....

Brilliant idea. Everyone should be aware however that there are a few permutations of the Sennheiser 609 (not to mention the 906) that all sound quite different. The original Sennheiser MD409 now commands premium prices on the used market, and, in the opinion of many, is superior in sound quality to current production models.

 

[Aleph5]

Wow! I use those very same rubber bands to bundle cables around my bridge. Well, er, -- not THOSE same rubber bands! I don't know how clean UnkieToad keeps his asparagus.
But I meant those nice purple ones from asparagus my wife buys. Great quality, at least until they finally rot. (Not my wife and Toadie. Er,--you know what I mean.)

 

[Uncletoad]

Brilliant idea. Everyone should be aware however that there are a few permutations of the Sennheiser 609 (not to mention the 906) that all sound quite different. The original Sennheiser MD409 now commands premium prices on the used market, and, in the opinion of many, is superior in sound quality to current production models.

Makes sense. The thing was pretty light and I think made in China or something. The 906 a better mousetrap you think? The 409 is like $500 or more now. Is it really that much better than the 609 at $100 or the 906 at $200?

 

[Uncletoad]

I don't know how clean UnkieToad keeps his asparagus.

Hmnn. Wouldn't you love to know honey.

 

[Uncletoad]

Brilliant idea. Everyone should be aware however that there are a few permutations of the Sennheiser 609 (not to mention the 906) that all sound quite different. The original Sennheiser MD409 now commands premium prices on the used market, and, in the opinion of many, is superior in sound quality to current production models.

In that regard, check this out.

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They pretty much demonstrate that the silver 609 is super bright compared to the black 609, the 906 and the 409. The midrange of the 409 is sweeter. The 906 flat is closest to the 409.

In listening to those comparisons on my monitors the 609's brightness might be useful or then again just noisy. Sounds pretty good on the bass. No doubt the 409 is a sweeter sound. I'm trying to borrow one and compare.

Oddly the respected black version 609 sounded kinda dull in comparison.

The 906 may be a better compromise between them all, providing a brighter version of the "vintage" tone. For half the vintage price tag.

 

[Tom Baldwin]

Careful with those rubber bands. THey do dry rot and break. I used to use them to keep my tuner ears from rattling before I got them fixed. I rekon the shockmount stuff is safer, stronger, longer lasting.