Double Bass Mic/Full Circle comparisons for live sound

[larry]

Okay, help me understand please.

The primary reasons the Shure mics (or larry's Beyer) sound so good with these setups are:

(1) There is no HP filter like with the AMT, so you're picking up more of a full range sound (i.e. more treble, more upper mids).

(2) Tilting the head of the mic toward the table is key, since the Shures are directional.

(3) Having the mic really close to the table (at a fixed distance) as opposed to on a stand is also key. This also employs a bass enhancing (?) promixity effect.

Seems like those stand out as the big 3 factors, if I've interpreted all this properly. Correct? More or less?

Jus' tryin' to get all this new info about old mics straight.

And thanks of course!

The real point of difference is condenser vs dynamic. Dynamic mics are less sensitive, therefore you get less bleed and more focus on the sound in front of the mic (your bass). This makes it less prone to feedback, giving you more headroom than you would get with a condenser. The sound from a dynamic mic may have less detail than a condenser (depending on what mics you are comparing), but the differences can be subtle with a good-quality dynamic mic. The subtle difference is likely un-noticable in a live situaiton, but the benefit of using a dynamic over a condenser in a live situation quickly becomes obvious.

Proximity effect can be good or bad, depending on the bass, mic, room, etc. It also is a product of microphone polar pattern, not type. The AMT has proximity effect too. All mics do, unless they have an omni pattern. Omni mics are usually not the first choice for live sound work, but a great choice in the studio in a controlled environment.

Beyond that, it's about what flavor you like.

 

[Randy Ward]

So have any of you following this thread started looking for a a deal or a used beta 57 on-line? Well I was and I found this posted at e-bay:

Use caution when purchasing a SM57, SM58, or Beta 57 or 58 online. Ebay has been flooded with scam auctions for these mics. If you are looking for a brand new one, make sure you buy it from an established US based seller with good feedback specifically for selling microphones. Watch out for the sellers from China with private feedback that are selling these mics for far less than US dealers. You will end up with counterfeit mics that will look good but will not perform like the real thing. Even worse are the thieves that are listing these mics as 24 hour buy it now auctions at outrageously low prices using hijacked inactive accounts. Look at the sellers feedback. If they have not been active, or have only been buyers, or have not sold microphones in the past, and are suddenly listing a ton of Shure mics, Stay away and report it to Ebay.

 

[Johnny L]

Thinking about the AMT mounting system, has anyone tried to rig anything similar to hold a regular mic rather than hanging it from the strings and/or bridge? If so, how successful were you and did you notice a change in the sound (both acoustically and ampified)?

Ah I just found out about the tiny clip on instrument mics like the ATM35 Ray Brown used and stuff here when I did some searching. Pretty cool but they're condenser mics.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

After playing a loud gig on Thursday and another on Saturday at the Jazz Factory, then another on Sunday in one of the most difficult rooms I ever play in, I'll be taking the AMT off the bass and using the Beta 57 instead on a regular basis. It isn't that the Beta sounded that much better than the AMT (I like it maybe a little better), but that it's indestructible and doesn't require a preamp with the Focus. I may experiment with other handheld mics, but for now, the Beta 57 seems to be working, and I never worry about damaging the cable(s)...and if I do, I've got 15 more at home.

Live and learn...

 

[Wilbyman]

Thanks for all the reporting Chris, I might go out after work and look at some microphones...

W

 

[Uncletoad]

I'll be taking the AMT off the bass and using the Beta 57 instead on a regular basis. It isn't that the Beta sounded that much better than the AMT (I like it maybe a little better), but that it's indestructible and doesn't require a preamp with the Focus. I may experiment with other handheld mics, but for now, the Beta 57 seems to be working, and I never worry about damaging the cable(s)...and if I do, I've got 15 more at home.

Live and learn...

I figured that. It does create issues for the Walter Woods or EA folks that you don't have with the AI heads. Regular bass amps won't hang without something in the middle there like a mic pre.

 

[TroyK]

1) Really nice playing, Chris. As others have stated. I think I'll be in the basement copping some Fitzgerald lines this weekend.

2) If you're not happy with your intonation in those tracks, then don't look for me to upload any of myself any time soon.

3) I was hoping to see more Full Circle discussion following. I realize this is a mic thread. I'm still having trouble hearing and being heard on stage and have come to the conclusion that woody, gutty, flat eq is a beautiful sound at home, but not necessarily the most portable. The Rev Solo was not good for me in any way. Was thinking about a full circle, but really hate to guess and be wrong again. I've been a Realist man for many years now. I think either the pickup or the strings are going to need to change. And I need to learn to use my eq.

Not really a question in there, but if someone wants to lob advice at me, I'm all ears.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

It does create issues for the Walter Woods or EA folks that you don't have with the AI heads. Regular bass amps won't hang without something in the middle there like a mic pre.

True, most folks will need a blender. But those little cannon plugs that transform Low to Hi Z do a nice job as well, though I must admit I like plugging directly into the XLR.

Nice playing... intonation...

Thanks, Troy. I didn't mean to sound whiny about the intonation thing...I think that often, we are all our own worst critics.

3) I was hoping to see more Full Circle discussion following. I realize this is a mic thread. I'm still having trouble hearing and being heard on stage and have come to the conclusion that woody, gutty, flat eq is a beautiful sound at home, but not necessarily the most portable. The Rev Solo was not good for me in any way. Was thinking about a full circle, but really hate to guess and be wrong again. I've been a Realist man for many years now. I think either the pickup or the strings are going to need to change. And I need to learn to use my eq.

We were just talking about this issue at the IASJ hang today. Every bassplayer hears something different that they're going for, and each person had a different setup. Some guys liked the sound I was getting with this rig, others thought it sounded a bit too "NHOP/BROMBERGish". A lot of that has to do with strings, and a lot with the pickup, and a lot with the hands. As far as the FC, I like it a lot because it is the perfect compliment to a mic for me. It has what the mic doesn't, and the louder I play, the more pickup gets thrown into the mix for clarity. Some guys loved the Realist, I hated it. I've never heard the HAN SOLO. The FC is good at what it does live, but some people don't like that sound, which is also fine. My main motivation pickup wise in loudsettings is that I can still hear myself and feel that the bass still has some presence. Did anybody bring a FC to the Seattle belchfest, or is it still waiting to happen?

 

[TroyK]

The Seattle Belchfest is Sunday and I'm looking forward to it. Hoping to try a few pickups and strings and of course, meet the fellas.

I'm coming to a wierd conclusion. I don't think I'll like the sound of the Full Circle either, but I almost feel like I need it sometimes. Thinking about Spirocores too, altough every string I've tried for the past 3 or 4 years has been going the other direction. Kind of a bummer.

I'm sure a Sunday afternoon with my Seattle brothers and sisters will sort it all out for me. Chris, we'll take some pictures of all of us west coast hippies in a circle with our hackey sacs for you.

 

[Uncletoad]

Did anyone talk about Beta 57 vs. regular 57? The 57 I've got sounds really bad compared to the AMT.

How bout Kick mics like the AKG D112 or the Beta one? I saw something about a Beyer 88 earlier.

Anybody up for a "comparison of dynamic mics" thread?

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Anybody up for a "comparison of dynamic mics" thread?

Heck, I figure that's what we've already got here. Anybody wants to record a different dynamic, stick the clips up here. And if anybody's really, REALLY OCD about the scientific method, I'll be happy to make a clip through the same system as the others for whoever wants to put a new dynamic mic in my grubby little hands.

 

[robgrow]

I think most folks will find that using a decent quality in-line impedance matching transformer is all they need to plug a dynamic mic like a Shure 57 into an amp with a 1/4-inch input. If you really want to go high quality, you could get a mic input transformer such as a Jensen JT-13K6-C Link Removed and put it in a project box along with the appropriate connectors. This would be much less expensive than most good mic preamps.

 

[Uncletoad]

I think most folks will find that using a decent quality in-line impedance matching transformer is all they need to plug a dynamic mic like a Shure 57 into an amp with a 1/4-inch input. If you really want to go high quality, you could get a mic input transformer such as a Jensen JT-13K6-C Link Removed and put it in a project box along with the appropriate connectors. This would be much less expensive than most good mic preamps.

Fantastic.

 

[Johnny L]

A single transformer is around $60. Not bad if you know how to solder and have the tools.

A while back I made a footswitch to swap my signal between different outputs using just a junction box I picked up from the hardware store. Still works like a champ and sturdy.

 

[Ric Vice]

After playing a loud gig on Thursday and another on Saturday at the Jazz Factory, then another on Sunday in one of the most difficult rooms I ever play in, I'll be taking the AMT off the bass and using the Beta 57 instead on a regular basis. It isn't that the Beta sounded that much better than the AMT (I like it maybe a little better), but that it's indestructible and doesn't require a preamp with the Focus. I may experiment with other handheld mics, but for now, the Beta 57 seems to be working, and I never worry about damaging the cable(s)...and if I do, I've got 15 more at home.

Live and learn...

Chris,
Thanks you for sharing all you're research with us. I was about to pull the trigger on a AMT because I'm several big outdoor concerts this summer and my regular rig just won't work for that.
As I read through this thread, what I gather is that a close proximity condenser mic like the AMT, has to have a really tight pattern to avoid feedback. Building that type of condenser is expensive because it's sort of
counter intuitive to what condensers normally do.
Meanwhile, SM 57, and the Beta 57 do a better job and obviously cost a lot less. What I'm wondering is if there's a way to design a dynamic mic
with that has less mass and a mount that is easily attached to the bass.
I think that Uncletoad may be on to something. Those kick drum mics
are much smaller than the 57's. But the they are designed for percussion not bass.

Ric

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Ric - actually, I don't know that the Beta is really any better than the AMT, but it's way less hassle and expense, and it's damn hard to break one. There may well be smaller versions around that will do a nice job, but I think the size of the handheld dynamics is a great asset because of the way the tail end fits perfectly between the strings in the afterlength.

I played a live recording session last night, and the sound engineer liked the placement of the Beta so well that he just decided that he couldn't do any better in a live setting and took the feed from the Focus straight into the board. My only regret about the result is that I didn't have a DI box or two with me so I could have sent the mic and pickup signals to seperate channels and mix later.

 

[Racsen]

Did you have a chance to try sm 57 ? I'll buy beta 57 A or sm57 but I can only try sm57.

(And then I'll buy Full circle Thank for Chris Fitzgerald but first mic )

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I haven't yet tried a regular 57 because I don't own one. I hear it's similar to the 58, but that's all I know so far. If anybody wants to loan me one, I'll be happy to add a cut.

 

[Uncletoad]

I was about to pull the trigger on a AMT because I'm several big outdoor concerts this summer and my regular rig just won't work for that.

Meanwhile, SM 57, and the Beta 57 do a better job and obviously cost a lot less. What I'm wondering is if there's a way to design a dynamic mic
with that has less mass and a mount that is easily attached to the bass.

Me too. I know Chris is convinced about the AMT vs. the Dynamic mics, however I'm not ready to sell my AMT yet. I've been doing experiments in my studio and still prefer the tone of the AMT to the cheaper dynamics I've got. OTOH The AMT on gigs has never worked very well for me. I'm trying some new mounting things with it and haven't kicked it to the curb yet. But I might after trying some dynamics.

I think that Uncletoad may be on to something. Those kick drum mics
are much smaller than the 57's. But the they are designed for percussion not bass.

I tried a Sure SM57, SM58, AKG D112 and the AMT. The D112 is hard to mount usefully and is to boomy unless on a stand a foot or two away. The 57 sounded decent but had a weird spike or transient in it. The 58 was best of the 3 but still not as detailed as the AMT.

I don't have the Betas or anything else higher end but I'm trying to borrow some.

Oh yea and that cheapy mic transformer from Radio Shack works nicely into the Woods. Better than I would have thought. I like it better than the sound of the AMT super pre into the same input. Coulda saved some money not buying that super preamp.

 

[Uncletoad]

I played a live recording session last night, and the sound engineer liked the placement of the Beta so well that he just decided that he couldn't do any better in a live setting and took the feed from the Focus straight into the board.

Gotta love that.