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Mic'ing bass amp for streaming/live performance

vindibona1

vindibona1

Apr 18, 2015
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#1
I play bass in a worship group from time. Typically we get plugged into a house system, even the bass amp; XLR out to the main box. The bass amp had pretty much been used as my monitor without regard to what was happening in the house. However, in the stream the volume was far, far too low as it there was no bass at all. The one time that the balance was good was when the amp was mic'd. So Friday I played bass again and requested that the amp be mic'd rather than just straight out to the board (o a Behringer X18 I think controlled by an iPad. ). The good news is that the bass showed up in the mix, and perhaps a bit louder than I would have wanted. The bad news is that the bass was distorted in the stream... and I'm told the whole group wasn't loud enough in the house. Balance in the stream was ok, but again, I was distorted throughout, regardless of volume.

The amp is a complicated thing an Acoustic Image Ten2. As a bass player I hate it as it makes things way more complicated than they need be. But it's not my amp (and I may bring my own next time). Acoustic Image Ten2 Combo Amp Review

I'm not sure when I have to play bass with this setup next, but I want to be prepared. I'm not sure which mic they used, but they tend to have a quantity of expensive stuff. I know they've got a plethora of wireless mics and a couple dozen Shure SM58's. If need be I could bring my Gallien-Krueger MB112 if it makes things easier to control.

So, how would you go about mic'ing a bass amp to minimize distortion?

Thanks in advance.
 
#4
IMHO your problem is not what mic or feed you’re using, but how you are monitoring your stream audio feed. I have extensive experience with this as I was the media director for a very large Baptist church in south Texas and we have had a live tv feed for decades. We solved all our streaming audio/live tv problems with an isolation room with a dedicated separate mixer paralleling the FOH board. Works like a charm. I hope this helps send you in the right direction.
As to your original question, a direct feed works great as long as your mixer can clearly monitor it for distortion and placing in the mix. A Shure SM57 (or SM58) is a pretty good mic for that purpose though I would probably use a Shure beta52 myself. There are a lot of mcs that would work and personal preference is really the way to go.
 
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#5
seamonkey said:
IMHO
Skip the on-stage amp
Go straight through the board.
Use IEMs
What you hear is what you stream
Click to expand...

That was the problem... Read below.

filmtex said:
IMHO your problem is not what mic or feed you’re using, but how you are monitoring your stream audio feed. I have extensive experience with this as I was the media director for a very large Baptist church in south Texas and we have had a live tv feed for decades. We solved all our streaming audio/live tv problems with an isolation room with a dedicated separate mixer paralleling the FOH board. Works like a charm. I hope this helps send you in the right direction.
As to your original question, a direct feed works great as long as your mixer can clearly monitor it for distortion and placing in the mix. A Shure SM57 (or SM58) is a pretty good mic for that purpose though I would probably use a Shure beta52 myself. There are a lot of mcs that would work and personal preference is really the way to go.
Click to expand...

I think the issue is between the board and the stream. I'm not technically knowledgeable beyond knowing that we all can plug into DI boxes and they go into the Behinger X18 and the iPad balances the house speakers, monitors and then goes out to the stream. The bass amp is simply my monitor. The guitars get to hear themselves through the same monitors that the vocals come through (not ideal IMO). I'm not sure how it all gets pumped to the stream. Is it mono, stereo or multi-channel ? I believe that what I'm hearing is mono output from the streamed recordings. We have two sanctuaries that are wired for streaming, the small one that holds about 200 people and the other that can hold around 1000 before opening the back wall.

I'm not the director, just one of the regular musicians who plays at these things (sometimes guitar, sometimes bass) but I take pride in my playing and if someone is going to be watching I want it to at least be representative of what both the ensemble and I do. It can be even worse when I'm playing acoustic as going direct into the board and out I'm often not heard AT ALL in the stream. I

So assuming the problem is from the X18 and the board into the stream, what do we need to balance the instrument and EQ then in the stream?
 
#8
vindibona1 said:
That ought to be a given. We need a competent sound person to monitor the house system as well. What equipment needs to be in place to between the house system and the stream?
Click to expand...

If the house system has the capability to do an additional monitor mix for the stream all you would need is a stereo patch cable from the mixer to your current A/D converter and some way to listen to that mix in isolation.
 
#9
lz4005 said:
If the house system has the capability to do an additional monitor mix for the stream all you would need is a stereo patch cable from the mixer to your current A/D converter and some way to listen to that mix in isolation.
Click to expand...

Ok... You probably would make some money if you wrote a book... "Streaming for Dummies"... What's an A/D converter? I guess I would benefit knowing how all this stuff gets hooked up.

Starting at the beginning of my knowledge, I know that I get plugged into a DI which runs to a Behringer XR18 X-air box. Invalid Link Removed
I have to assume that it has a hard wire connection to whatever amp or preamp goes to the house speakers. What I don't know is if there is supposed to be a separate out from the Xair to a streaming input somewhere? It appears we're getting a mono signal at the home viewer level. What I also don't know is if the the EQ the director is putting in for the house system is mucking up the sound that the home view is hearing, requiring an "un-correction"? So I don't even know what the possibilities are so that I can pose the question of "what if" to help make it better. So if you can educate me on the possible output to stream scenarios are I can do some digging and gently ask the appropriate questions.
TIA
 
#11
vindibona1 said:
So if you can educate me on the possible output to stream scenarios are I can do some digging and gently ask the appropriate questions.
Click to expand...

I'm not going to write up possible scenarios for how a complicated A/V system I've never even seen is or should be configured. There are literally thousands of possibilities. You need to talk to the person who has hands on the equipment to solve the problem.
 
#13
Without being there and seeing what is going I can't answer definitely but I'll venture a few guesses anyway.
Trying to do it all off one mixer is hard. If they make it sound good in the room it probably won't sound right on the stream. If they mix for the streaming the room sound will be off. Best way is to have separate mixers dedicated to each.....
I'm guessing the level disparity between the di and having your amp miced may have to do with the fact that the amp may have been pushing more level into the mic than your bass into the di. Did your sound person adjust the gain on the bass channel when you made the switch or just throw up a mic and not change anything?
The feed to the streaming is probably just a mono aux send. Should be able to put on headphones and adjust it separately. Though without any real isolation from the PA in the room it will be difficult to hear what is really going on. Also most people listening to the stream are probably doing so on small computer speakers capable of limited bandwidth. Would be helpful to have a compressor on the output. And a high pass filter if possible.
I would say for the bass a di is gonna be the cleanest signal. Just have the sound person gain it up a little. though micing an amp works too. Find whichever works best.
Maybe roll off a little low end. Might be good in the PA and subs in the room but not so much so for the stream. They might be feeling the low end from the subs and think you are loud enough in the mix but the fundamentals of your tone may be too quiet. Knock a few dB off from 100hz down and increase the gain in your channel.
 
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#14
The only thing you can really do as a player, is keep your stage volume low enough that it's not part of the FOH mix and make sure you are giving them a good feed that not overly equalized. This theoretically forces your sound person to bring it up in the mix to an acceptable level in FOH and consequently, the feed to your streaming device. Beyond that, it up to the people behind the faders and trust that the PA is properly set up, EQ'd for the room and not the kick drum. The correct way to do what your asking would be to split all inputs to a second mixer, located in a isolated room, that just mixes the stream feed, but they may not have the resources and/or people to make that happen.
 
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#16
LowFactor said:
Without being there and seeing what is going I can't answer definitely but I'll venture a few guesses anyway.
Trying to do it all off one mixer is hard. If they make it sound good in the room it probably won't sound right on the stream. If they mix for the streaming the room sound will be off. Best way is to have separate mixers dedicated to each.....
I'm guessing the level disparity between the di and having your amp miced may have to do with the fact that the amp may have been pushing more level into the mic than your bass into the di. Did your sound person adjust the gain on the bass channel when you made the switch or just throw up a mic and not change anything?
The feed to the streaming is probably just a mono aux send. Should be able to put on headphones and adjust it separately. Though without any real isolation from the PA in the room it will be difficult to hear what is really going on. Also most people listening to the stream are probably doing so on small computer speakers capable of limited bandwidth. Would be helpful to have a compressor on the output. And a high pass filter if possible.
I would say for the bass a di is gonna be the cleanest signal. Just have the sound person gain it up a little. though micing an amp works too. Find whichever works best.
Maybe roll off a little low end. Might be good in the PA and subs in the room but not so much so for the stream. They might be feeling the low end from the subs and think you are loud enough in the mix but the fundamentals of your tone may be too quiet. Knock a few dB off from 100hz down and increase the gain in your channel.
Click to expand...

Thanks. I think you've identified some basic issues that need addressing. First, when the bass amp is miced the mic goes into the system and the bass doesn't go into the DI any longer. It has been an either/or setup. When direct in the amp is simply a monitor for me to hear what I'm going.

But yeah... a second mixer sounds like it is required. If all the mic's and instruments go into the XR-18, then how do you control the levels of each instrument going into a stream mixer? It isn't even so much the EQ as balance. There have been instances where in the stream the voices are blasting to the point of near distortion while the bass and rhythm guitar might as well have gone home and the electric lead is the only thing with a reasonable presence.

I think I need to do some more gentle inquiries. I have to be very diplomatic on my approach. Friday night we are hosting a guest artist and it will suck if the stream presents badly. I'll be on rhythm guitar this week, so who knows how that's going to get mixed in. I'm often audibly invisible when I'm playing rhythm.
 
#17
You would need to split the signals before they hit the mixers. A simple Y cable with 1 female to 2 male xlr would do it. Or you can get a simple rackmount splitter that has a transformer in it so that the streaming side is isolated to prevent any kind of hums and buzzes. Doesn't need to be fancy.
If the guys onstage are using amps and their stage volume is loud enough that the sound person takes them out of the PA that could be one reason that they are none existent on the stream feed.
Another temporary fix would be to have someone with an iPad connected to your current mixer sitting in another room listening to the stream and making adjustments... not really ideal but at least they could fix some of the problems you are currently experiencing. Would be a bit of a lag between their adjustment and hearing what they did.
 

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