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Miking the rig (live), unrealistic ?

jsa0100

jsa0100

Apr 6, 2005
188
22
Norway
#1
I am sorry if i am bringing up an old issue.
But i didn't find any exact mach by searching.
My best sounding rig is a Carvin valve head
an a 15" speaker. I prefer the sound it gives when
it is slightly saturated. Is it possible to retain most of the
sound in the PA by miking the rig ?
Or am i being unrealistic ?
The few concerts i have been with Bass players miking their bass rig, have failed to retain the original sound.
The players would probably have been better of by running the preamp-out in to the board !
 
#2
Its possible but often not practical, micing bass amps has been widely covered (and recently too), you need a decent mic for the job, time to set it up (postion can be more critical than on a guitar amp IMO) and an engineer willing to do the job.

Also spill is often mentioned as a major problem. I dont find that but I do think that a single mic is going to struggle up clos as so much of the energy/sound is from the port rather than the speaker.
 
#4
Take a mic, take a stand, know how to set it up for a good sound yourself ... and you should be fine. The overall sound will typically be more midrange oriented than the big bottom of a DI.

I usually like an SM-57 pointed strait at the interface between the surround and the cone, about 3/8" from the grill. Nice and punchy and not overly bright.

A DI is sure a lot easier. The SansAmp BDDI would be good for the kind of sound you're looking for.
 
#6
My setup: An AKG D112 on my favorite speaker, placed a bit to the side and not directly infront of the center (some soundmen like it dead center as well (opinions)) and a DI. I use two channels and the soundman can mix with those two to get a great sound. The immidiacy and punch of the DI and the slight distortion of the speakers.
It's all opinion. I've had some soundguys freak at the thought of micing a bass cab and I've had others that insisted that they use a Beta 58 on my cab (by the way, that sounded AWESOME) and if your fortunate to have a good soundman, he'll make you sound good regardless.

Here's a great tip that I notice MANY people don't follow. DO NOT PISS THE SOUND GUY OFF!!!!

I see so many peeps that have attitudes with their sound guy and if you want crummy sound that's a good start!
 
#8
timzrage said:
Here's a great tip that I notice MANY people don't follow. DO NOT PISS THE SOUND GUY OFF!!!!

I see so many peeps that have attitudes with their sound guy and if you want crummy sound that's a good start!
Click to expand...

As a sound man first and a bass player second, I can tell you this is absolutely true. I am very open to try anything the performer needs to get "their sound" and I'll make changes (within reason) to accommodate them. However, when I run across an arrogant jerk, I will not put NEARLY as much effort into helping them. I could care less how you "do it all the time". I don't come up there and tell you what notes to play. You do your job and I'll do mine.

That's not to say there aren't arrogant jerks running sound as well. I hate those guys too.

Be nice to the sound man and everyone will have a great time.:hyper:
 
#9
That's another soundman trick. I'll let you hook up as many lines as you want to. (DIs, Mics, Preamps, whatever)

It doesn't mean I have to use them all...:ninja:

If the tone sucks, I'll just use something else. The goal of the soundman is to make the band sound as good as possible for the audience .

If that means killing a crappy channel for a less crappy channel then so be it.

Just remember, you can't shine a turd...
 
#10
I play out of an Ampeg combo with a 15" and at my last gig (last few for that matter) it was mic'd. I let the bassist in the band playing before me borrow the rig so I got to hear it on stage and off. It sounded good. Set-up took no longer than anything else.
 
#11
Geddyfleaharris said:
^^^ I agree with that post.

Use both. Run a DI and throw a mic in front of your cab. Unless the sound man is a complete a$$ then it shouldn't be a problem.
Click to expand...

I use both...and my experience is not like Pickles'...my SM-7 on the bass cab provides more of the "beef" of my live tone vice the DI...which provides the "clarity-forward" part of my PA tone...they make a beautiful pairing for me, and the blending of the two signals gives me a great FOH sound. The freq response of your mic will be more pertinent to what the "mic'd" sound will sound like. It will, as Pickles said, be more mid-rangey if you use a Shure SM-57 (as it is very mid-forward and not very linear at all in frequency response)....but if you use an RE-20 or an SM-7 or a D-4 or something more suited for linear (and deep) frequency response, your results will be different.

And, as so many others have said, mic placement will be critical to your sound...especially if you use a three-way cabinet. While I don't often use the 2xWizzy rig for rock so much anymore, it was a beaut for mic'ing as an Audix D-4 on the Cone right between the Wizzer and the "normal" cone picked up the cabinet's sound completely and translated almost transparently to the FOH board.

Blending mic's and DI's is a great thing - imo.

Jay
 
#14
Bardley said:
As a sound man first and a bass player second, I can tell you this is absolutely true. I am very open to try anything the performer needs to get "their sound" and I'll make changes (within reason) to accommodate them. However, when I run across an arrogant jerk, I will not put NEARLY as much effort into helping them. I could care less how you "do it all the time". I don't come up there and tell you what notes to play. You do your job and I'll do mine.
Click to expand...
Um, sorry, but your job as a soundman is to make the band look good. And if someone in the band wants a certain thing out of the sound, it's not really your call. Maybe you don't like what they're doing, but maybe it's integral to their sound. Granted, I can't blame you for not wanting to help out a jerk, but it's not as simple as "you do your job and I'll do mine." I'll do my job, yes, but a soundman's job is to take the musicians' job and reproduce it for a venue. Will I stand over your shoulder and make sure you're doing it? Of course not. But I will have final say over the mic you use and how I think it should sound in the PA (and yes, I come off the stage quite often during soundchecks and even during the gig sometimes). If you're not prepared to do that for me, then I won't hire you.
 
#16
Geddyfleaharris said:
^^^ I agree with that post.

Use both. Run a DI and throw a mic in front of your cab. Unless the sound man is a complete a$$ then it shouldn't be a problem.
Click to expand...

+1 ... As an audio guy speaking, both techniques work wonders and typically they can both complement each other if done right. The key is "it depends"! Each bass rig will sound different with each microphone and each PA ... without doing both (or without having extensive experience with the variables in question to know the result ahead of time) you won't know what sounds the best. Typically if I have time, I'll do both.

That being said, sometimes time is the major hurdle. You have to keep in mind that there is a lot to do, and there are many things in a live show that have to be compromised. Studio work is a different story, but on a live stage, typically with multiple bands you have to keep in mind that sometimes the easiest answer might be the only answer if you want to make sure it works (which is the most important thing).

The other problem is you have to keep in mind the skill level of the guy mixing the show. I don't know what size shows you're doing but if it's a bar gig or something small with weekend warrior sound guys mixing, the DI might be the best option simply because there is less to screw up. Not to say that there aren't fabulous sound guys doing small gigs, or the reverse ... terrible sound guys doing large shows, it's just important to keep in mind that sometimes more variables can start to create problems if the experience isn't there to back it up.

Last point ... one of my favorite bass mics for you to try is the Sennheiser MD421 (but there are tons of good options) ... Good luck!
 
#17
pedro said:
I'm curious why this is a problem now. In the 60-70's micing was all that was available and always thought it sounded good.
Click to expand...

Bands play much louder now than they did back then. Amps are bigger, and drum kits are designed to compete with them. Bleed-through is more of a problem at louder stage volume.

Yes, it's better (for many reasons) to use lower stage volume and let the PA do the work, but it's difficult to keep stage volume down (in rock music anyway) because of loud drum kits and hard-hitting drummers.
 
#18
While the SM-57 is a great utility mic, I wouldn't use it to mic my rig. IMO, it doesn't have the diaphram for it. I'm not sure it has the frequency range either, but it may. I would use either an EV RE20 or Sennheiser MD421.

Of course if you're running a biamp setup then the SM57 could cover the upper cabinet with another mic coving the lower cabinet.

ok, I didn't see jtallent's post before I made mine. My bad. I agree with everything he posted.
 
#19
Hoover said:
How do you know what their "original sound" was like if you were in the audience?

Or did you mean that it failed to sound like the recording?
Click to expand...

Actually i have even been on stage. Before or after the concerts.
One of the sound crews runs a musical store where i am one
of the customers. Sometimes i also show up a little early when they
are rigging the gear so i can hear the stage sound.
And sometimes i talk to the musicians.
The first question is important like are you bi-amping the monitors ?
What kind of strings are you using ?
My wife hate to go with me because i very often do stuff like that.

In many cases on outdoor concerts the PA are horn speakers and bass bin's
The sound is good but it lacks a little warmth and seems like some of the details
in the bass disappears. Lets say the player uses a jazz bass and i could tell it
was one blindfolded, the miked PA make it sound like any bass.
Horn loaded speakers can sound good so i am not sure what is happening.
 
#20
JimmyM said:
Um, sorry, but your job as a soundman is to make the band look good. And if someone in the band wants a certain thing out of the sound, it's not really your call. Maybe you don't like what they're doing, but maybe it's integral to their sound. Granted, I can't blame you for not wanting to help out a jerk, but it's not as simple as "you do your job and I'll do mine." I'll do my job, yes, but a soundman's job is to take the musicians' job and reproduce it for a venue. Will I stand over your shoulder and make sure you're doing it? Of course not. But I will have final say over the mic you use and how I think it should sound in the PA (and yes, I come off the stage quite often during soundchecks and even during the gig sometimes). If you're not prepared to do that for me, then I won't hire you.
Click to expand...
In my second post I agreed that the soundman's job is to make the band sound good for the audience. That is the goal of everyone involved. I'm not at all above using certain mics or other things the band wants to use. After all, it's their show. All I'm saying is when a guy wants to use his own $10 pawn shop special DI, I get the heat when it stops working during the show. I will use whatever gear the band wants as long as it gets a strong reliable signal to the board. My main point was that I am less willing to go out of my way to help someone if they are not being respectful or professional in their interactions with me. If they respectfully request things, I'll do just about whatever they want.
After all, it's all about the show!

I agree that my "you do your job" comment was a bit out of line and doesn't describe 99.9% of the people I've dealt with. I've been in too many meetings today and here I am lashing out on TB...:scowl:
 

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