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Miking the rig (live), unrealistic ?

Why is it always the bass? I have been on stages that had mics for a lead singer, two back-up singers, two guitar players that had their cabs miced plus a vocal mic for each, drummer with God knows how many mics on the kit, keyboard player with a vocal mic plus two different types of mics in two different locations for the Leslie, a mic each for the two horn players. And then when the "sound guy" gets to the bass player with a 1969 SVT and two 2x15 cabs it is always "Hhhhmmmm tisk tisk tisk... Mind if I DI your rig. It's kind of hard to mic with all the bleed and stuff"???
***!!!! Come on already.
 
How do you mic a ported speaker? This single issue convinces me that most sound guys should not be trusted to mic a bass speaker.

The reason for mic'ing a bass speaker is simply that it can be done, and works well for a lot of bass players.
 
I have been miced and sent a DI signal for one show in my cover band, other wise I get a DI signal straight to the board. And the other 90% of the shows have featured my rig as the means of hearing me, luckily I have Eden speakers.....

Micing a bass rig is not unrealistic, it's just getting the sound you hear from your rig 10 feet away out to the audience is just not going to happen without placing a mic in some funky spot onstage. Hellow bleed over!

IMHO, I think as bass players we are better off getting the low end of our sound to the sound guy from a good quality DI signal and give the growl, punch, and unique amp/speaker tone through a decent microphone. That way, the sound guy can mix both signals to whatever works out in the venue.

As for micing a multi-speaker cabinet, it's probably best to go with the speaker that has the most character. If you have a 410 and a 15, mic one of the 10's. Micing a 15 or an 18 is almost useless, unless that's your only cab and you have a certain sound you achieve from there.... Miced low end is going to sound like low end from a DI, the people in the audience will not notice one low end tone being different from another. Frequencies above 200hz through a miced cab or through a DI box are going to sound different. 200hz to 5khz is the range where bass players can add in their character to their tone. Get a mic that can capture that zone in a way that pleases you and be done with it. Let the DI do the rest.

Bass players can get a great DI tone if they have an awesome souding bass to work with and they have a sound man who does not believe in the "smiley face tone".
 
That being said, sometimes time is the major hurdle.

The other problem is you have to keep in mind the skill level of the guy mixing the show.

+1 to both of those sentiments. I use the DI out on my GK head and then an onstage cabinet mic. Now if the venue is set for either/or then time does become a factor in running a second line.

The soundman is the key. I am assuming that if he is competant then having a second signal is good for him too.

I am not a real audio guy so I don't know all the logistics and concerns about ported cabs and mics. But I use ported cabs and get lots of compliments on my sound using a DI and a mic. :)
 
Bands play much louder now than they did back then. Amps are bigger, and drum kits are designed to compete with them. Bleed-through is more of a problem at louder stage volume.

Yes, it's better (for many reasons) to use lower stage volume and let the PA do the work, but it's difficult to keep stage volume down (in rock music anyway) because of loud drum kits and hard-hitting drummers.

Thanks for the response. Its difficult for me to imagine too many bands much louder than Blue Cheer.
 
Bands play much louder now than they did back then. Amps are bigger, and drum kits are designed to compete with them. Bleed-through is more of a problem at louder stage volume.

Yes, it's better (for many reasons) to use lower stage volume and let the PA do the work, but it's difficult to keep stage volume down (in rock music anyway) because of loud drum kits and hard-hitting drummers.

I was not alive back then, so I don't really wasn't there to know, but I tend to enjoy (in general) the live recordings of concerts from the 70's more than live recordings from today. I was always under the impression that part of this reason was because bands used less pa support and let the amps on stage fill the room more (hense the large stacks at shows). Then the miced sound would only be a small support if needed, not the primary sound source. And then that also leaves all of the power of the pa system to be used for good, strong vocals.



So, if you're at the perfect volume to fill the room (meaning the band knows how to play a room even without a pa), you don't need a mic or a di! (and of course this doesn't need to include playing a stadium - we don't need anyone going deaf!)
 
How do you mic a ported speaker? This single issue convinces me that most sound guys should not be trusted to mic a bass speaker.

The reason for mic'ing a bass speaker is simply that it can be done, and works well for a lot of bass players.
It really doesn't take any effort to mic a bass speaker and make it sound great, ported or not. All you do is move the mic around until you get the sound you want. Tonight on my gig I stuck a 58 dead center of my B-15N cab, and it was the best sound in a PA I ever had in my life. I tried two DI's and the soundman didn't even want to use them. Which is fine by me ;)
 
Why is it always the bass? I have been on stages that had mics for a lead singer, two back-up singers, two guitar players that had their cabs miced plus a vocal mic for each, drummer with God knows how many mics on the kit, keyboard player with a vocal mic plus two different types of mics in two different locations for the Leslie, a mic each for the two horn players. And then when the "sound guy" gets to the bass player with a 1969 SVT and two 2x15 cabs it is always "Hhhhmmmm tisk tisk tisk... Mind if I DI your rig. It's kind of hard to mic with all the bleed and stuff"???
***!!!! Come on already.

Hired Hand, YOU are my hero! I've had this same lament time after time (although usually at rock clubs, and not bigger gigs) but until now it's almost always uttered under my breath because I also believe (as lots of TBers have mentioned earlier) the best way to sound bad is to piss off the sound engineer during setup or sound check. Although more than bleed, the excuse I usually get is that with a mic'd amp, ultimate control over volume is out of the engineer's hands. Most of these guys (and probably us TBers, too) have had the experience of the guitarist (could be bassist, but let's just say guitarist) who keeps turning up his amp long after sound check. If a bassist does this, it can really wreak havoc with a house PA and the overall sound of the band.

But more to the original point of the original post, mic selection and placement are critical- this would seem an obvious point, but beauty is only in the eye of the beholder. We've all got a different idea of what the perfect tone is. I work with one particular engineer on a fairly regular basis who's idea of great sound is very different from mine. It's a difference I've learned to cope with, because although I would prefer it a different way, lots of people (audience and other musicians alike) have complemented the sound of the band when he's mixing. What are you going to do?

To combat this situation, I have a couple of mics (with stands) that I'll bring with me to gigs. I know how they both sound with different rigs and for different styles of music. Plus, I've never had a sound guy, even at the lamest of the lame Hollywood rock clubs, tell me they wouldn't hook up an EV RE-20 when I pulled it out- It's usually the most expensive mic onstage (not that that really means anything, but it seems to do the trick) and I think they'd feel embarrassed not to use it. I use the EV or Sennheiser MD 421. In a pinch, I actually think an SM57, especially blended with a DI, is not a bad way to go. You get the smooth lows from the DI and midrange growl from the 57- although it's probably best if you're using 10" or 12" speakers.

Finally, if your sound really matters, and you didn't hire the sound guy yourself that night, tip him before you set up. I've never spent a better $5.00/band member. (Except that one time in Calcutta...). A mere $20 will almost always crack the crusty exterior of even the most embittered engineers.

-b
 
Is it possible to retain most of the
sound in the PA by miking the rig ?
Or am i being unrealistic ?
The few concerts i have been with Bass players miking their bass rig, have failed to retain the original sound.
The players would probably have been better of by running the preamp-out in to the board !

Also, try working with an engineer you know and like (and more importantly, who gets what sort of tone you're after) to get the sound you want to FOH. Different mics with different placements, different DIs, etc.

It also might be the case that the tone the players you heard were after is what was coming out of the FOH mains and not necessarily just what's coming off stage. I've got a '75 SVT that always sounds a bit harsh when I'm standing right in front of it, but experience has taught me that it really rounds out at 30' away and is great when mic'd and pumped through house mains and subs.