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Mini 0r Micro Amps.... I Must Be Missing Something?
- Thread starter Shane Carter
- Start date
Now this is turning out how the amps forum SHOULD be imo - lively discussion from people coming at an issue from all angles, with some agreement and some disagreements, but also with a shared interest in the topic and no stupid personal jibes. Nice.
Best thread I've read through in a while. Very educational, generally respectful discussion, lots to think about!
Yes, I did derail a little there but it was just to clear up a point made by joelb79 - "If the harmonics were odd, they wouldn't be very musical either"
Playing chords and double stops could possibly show up the compromises in the tempered scale, but as I mentioned, the 3rd harmonic is an octave above the perfect 5th where the difference is only a matter of 2 cents.
Odd harmonics aren't necessarily unmusical.
I'm not doubting that and I agree. My wording was wrong my apologies; what I meant to say was that the harmonics from an over-driven solid state power amplifier are usually not the desirable kind. (odd or not.)
It's late.. I had an odd thought about odd harmonics; and being an odd guy I'm just gonna spit this out and hope it comes out right. We tune to 440. Would tuning to 432 (pythagorean) change that 2 cents off on that perfect 5th? I don't know the math on that one. Lest we derail this thread anymore with our oddness?
I'm not doubting that and I agree. My wording was wrong my apologies; what I meant to say was that the harmonics from an over-driven solid state power amplifier are usually not the desirable kind. (odd or not.)
It's late.. I had an odd thought about odd harmonics; and being an odd guy I'm just gonna spit this out and hope it comes out right. We tune to 440. Would tuning to 432 (pythagorean) change that 2 cents off on that perfect 5th? I don't know the math on that one. Lest we derail this thread anymore with our oddness?
Last derail. The 5th is not a problematic interval. 440Hz + 2 cents is 440.51Hz so basically no difference. Using a different reference frequency wouldn't make a difference as it's frequency ratios that matter and they're determined by the fret positions on the fingerboard.
Too much time on my hands. Sorry, back on track
Last derail. The 5th is not a problematic interval. 440Hz + 2 cents is 440.51Hz so basically no difference. Using a different reference frequency wouldn't make a difference as it's frequency ratios that matter and they're determined by the fret positions on the fingerboard.
Too much time on my hands. Sorry, back on track
Anytime in education is good time. Thank you for your time.
One thing I've noticed in these big amp versus small amp threads is the small amp guys always say, I've owned brand x, brand y, brand a, and they're all great. The question I have is this: If they're all great, why do you keep changing brands... searching for the same tone a large amp puts out possibly?
The large amp guys just say I love my Ampeg, Mesa, whatever... or in my case Hartke. I can move the rack and cabs in one load on a trolley and I'll probably have it 'til the day I die. It has got the sound I've been searching for, and I haven't heard a micro that sounds anything like it.
The large amp guys just say I love my Ampeg, Mesa, whatever... or in my case Hartke. I can move the rack and cabs in one load on a trolley and I'll probably have it 'til the day I die. It has got the sound I've been searching for, and I haven't heard a micro that sounds anything like it.
I have had my small amp a few years now.
Have not changed it and have no desire to in the foreseeable future. It has got the sound I've been searching for.
I can move my entire rig in one load without a trolley. Even over soggy grass or sand or up stairs. Something I could not with last rig.
I also can hear a difference among every amp I compare. There are no two amps that sound the same. If you compare an SWR900 to a DB750, they will sound quite different. If you compare a classic SVT to an Orange tube amp, they will sound different. If you compare an LMIII to a Streamliner, they will sound differnet, and yes, if you compare and SVT7Pro to an SVT4Pro, they will sound different
I again do not hear ANY consistency between 'class of amp' in general. There is just as much variation to me across SMPS models as there is across other power supply based models.If you would compare the REDDI to a JDI, they might sound more similar, might not. If you could make two units sound exactly alike, regardless of topology and all the other voicing differences that make each product sound like that product, well then, that would be quite strange.
Again, to be fair, almost everyone agrees that once you run a Tube amp hard, the way that power section handles distortion IS different. Those who really like the sound of power amps pushed into clipping, that is its own thing, which I guess is why you still see quite a few 'hard rock' guys using them, and also other players who dig that vibe. Nothing wrong with that!That is an easy one. First, the number of SMPS offerings have exploded over the past 5 years or so, and every year, there are SIGNIFICANT new product introductions, including many companies who never had a micro offering introducing them. Also, the power and feature set continues to improve on many product lines, versus the relatively static full weight offerings.
GK and Genz are great examples of this.... first micro product line was 500 watts, then, holy cow, same great sound, 800+ watts, then..... wow, they figured out how to put a class A 3 tube preamp in one.... (these companies have had similar product line updates). So, lots of 'I love it but now I even love it more'
The resale is also quite good, and often the absolute price point is low, and buying online is very easy (small size and low shipping cost).
Finally, remember, Talkbass is a place where people who really like to buy gear go. Even though I purchase quite a few amps, I've been primarily gigging the same Markbass head for years. I did upgraded from the F1 to the F500 about three years ago, due to the nature of that upgrade... same great performance, MUCH improved feature set.
. I have many, many, many peers still amazed at the LMII's they bought 5-6 years ago, replacing their heavier rigs, and happily gigging them. I'm sure you can say the say the same for Genz 6 users, etc. None of them post on TB!
Well, this is a pretty simple issue.
First, the answer is 'yes they can and in some cases they do'. Genz has only one full weight head left in their product portfolio, and most believe the tonality is quite similar to their higher power SMPS offerings (although there are some feature and absolute power level differences, etc.). The 2ohm operation feature is also an 'advantage' to some players, although even there, the Shuttle Max 12.2 would make most of those guys happy IMO.
Most GK lovers hear very minor differences between the full weight heads and their micro offerings, when you line up the appropriate models. However, I assume their full weight models are still selling, and the bigger boxes allow more features, like the 'automatic knob' design of the full size Fusion, along with the dual power amp/electronic crossovers for the tweeters in the remaining RB line of heads.
Aguilar eliminated the AG500, and now has a very powerful, tube front end, large model, and a very small and lightweight class D./SMPS model.My guess, if they wanted to use a higher wattage class D/SMPS module, and put a similar preamp on the front of that amp, they could get even closer to the DB751 tone than they already are with the lower wattage, all solid state TH line of heads. I assume the DB is still selling and that the margins are good on that product, so might not be a smart marketing decision.
Ampeg is a bit different, since they have a lot of low end class A/B stuff, a classic all tube product that still sells, and as you painfully know, they have had more trouble than most with their new class D offerings. I would think that if they did not have that unfortunate roll-out of the SVT7Pro , there would be a number of other solid state offerings from their product line on the block.
Markbass has no 'traditional transformer' amps.
Ashdown seems to be heavily invested in all tube amps. They tried the class D thing, and it seemed to be a disaster for them in design and reliability.
Edit: Glockenklang. As a former owner of a lead sled Heartrock, the new 11 pound Blue Soul is ALL THE WAY there compared to the big iron model. However, the big iron model does do 2.67 ohm operation at a much higher power level than the Blue Soul, so has an advantage for those guys who want to use the Glock 610 cab, which can't be driven by the Blue Soul standard model. You can order a Blue Soul to work safely at 2.67 ohms, but they have to keep the power output constant, so there is a disadvantage there for that single application. If the Blue Soul is accepted by the Glock community (many players still 'listen with their eyes'), my guess is, the lower powered, much heavier 'Soul' will be soon discontinued.
etc., etc.
I would agree with you, with a slight adjustment.
Once again, this is going to sound like I'm picking on Aguilar and other high-end lead sled manufacturers, but I'm really not. In my dream world, where antigravity field generators and free money made a mockery of weight and price concerns, I would have a DB751 and an SVT as treasured parts of my amp collection.
But if you do a search on those amps, you'll note that there are tons of owners that have installed a revolving door for them. They buy them, love the tone for some gigs, trade them off, buy another, trade it off again...
I don't know if it's weight, cost or a combination of factors, but they obviously have commitment issues with those heads. I think there are as many different reasons for their "disloyalty", as there are owners.
It seems to me that you actually see more long-term loyalty with the stuff that hits some sort of sweet spot regarding price, power and weight, like Hartke, older SWR, mid-line Ampegs, etc.
I think that is the marketing space where the micros really compete, adding a new alternative for the working-class and hobbyist musician.
+1 I would probably 'upgrade again' from my long relationship with that product line... F1 to F500 to Big Bang. However, per your post, that won't be happening, since I like the feature set on the replaced F500 better, and am still thrilled with the overall tone and performance
Thank you aged horse.
That cleared up more than a few things for me. It left me realizing that class D and SMPS together represent a different set of technologies to master than a class AB PA with a linear supply. It is pretty clear to me that the subtleties of the design cycle to figure out how to take advantage of the newer technology is not yet fully mastered by the whole industry.
Makes me wonder if the most insightful way to look at class D is to have the stats on failure rate!
Your point about the impact of the preamp is well taken. When I stop and think about it, three of the heads I've used all really have about the same PA sections (SWR, Eden and Thunderfunk.) The preamps are wildly different.
I need to go audition a current class D head.
Jim
That cleared up more than a few things for me. It left me realizing that class D and SMPS together represent a different set of technologies to master than a class AB PA with a linear supply. It is pretty clear to me that the subtleties of the design cycle to figure out how to take advantage of the newer technology is not yet fully mastered by the whole industry.
Makes me wonder if the most insightful way to look at class D is to have the stats on failure rate!
Your point about the impact of the preamp is well taken. When I stop and think about it, three of the heads I've used all really have about the same PA sections (SWR, Eden and Thunderfunk.) The preamps are wildly different.
I need to go audition a current class D head.
Jim
I understand the convenience of these small heads, TC, Ampeg, Aguilar, GK, GB, MB etc. especially if you ride a bicycle. I even ordered the PF-500, primarily looking for a small backup for tube amps.
I realized I have to carry it and whether it's on top of my cab or in a case, I still have to move it. A power amp (I'm using a Crown XLS1500) has way more power, ohm and cab options, these mini's just aren't worth the problems people are posting on TB. Yes, you need a preamp either racked or in pedal form, but it's worth it.
PF-500 cancelled. Call me when they have one the size of a pack of cards, that works.
I guess that's why it is good that we have choices.. For me I get all the power and umph I need from my SL900.. and with the preamp in my bass my tonal options are only limited by my playing.
