Minimum gigable cab size/sensitivity

[Bobbadfinger]

Nowadays I just play at home, but planning to start to gig in the near future, mostly small clubs/no PA support.
I had an Ampeg BA112 that I really enjoyed its tone, but sold it due to lack of volume.
I also have an Ampeg SVT Classic, but since I'm unable to move it I bought an Warwick Gnome Ipro (180W/8ohm, 280W 4ohm) to be my gig amp.

Already have a (clone of) Ampeg 210 cab, 4 ohm, fitted with Eminence BP102.
It's not my dream tone to be honest, and it's my understanding those speakers have pretty low sensitivity (90.5dB).
"Looks like" it produces enough SPL before farting out to keep up with a rock drummer, but I'm not sure since I never used it in this situation.

I don't want a 4x10, nor have to bring a second cab. Obviously I'll use PA support when needed/available.
There's a chance to put my hands on an Aguilar SL112 cab.
Never heard one but I know it's quality stuff and has high efficiency (almost 99.9dB) from sheet specs.

Paired with the Gnome do you think would serve me better than this 2x10, even being 8ohm ?

I use to play (second) guitar in this band; it's that kind of vibe/volume. Actually I lent my Warwick to bass player to try it in a band situation. Not sure it was due to not being a Precision or the Ashdown 100W 1x12, it was completely drowned...

 

[bigdaddybass12]

All my gigs are at small venues. No FOH. Very light drummer. I have a Hartke HD210 cab, 250 w head, no issues keeping up. Plus cab is 32 lbs. clean big sound.

 

[Wasnex]

It's not a simple answer.

I prefer rig that can produce at least 124dB (calculated). I don't necessarily need to play that loud. In fact, I am only willing to turn up so much. If a 124dB rig can't cut through, I am not really interested in playing any louder.

The frequency response of the cab is an important factor. The calculated SPL of an Ampeg SVT and 810E at 300W is 124.8dB. But I have a hard time hearing myself through an 810E without totally blowing out the room. In other words if I can hear myself through this rig, everyone else probably thinks I am way too loud.

My last touring rig used a 250W per channel power amp and Eden XLT series cabs. Most of the time I used a D210XLT and left the D410XLT at home. The D210XLT has a higher sensitivity rating than an Ampeg 810E. With 250W the calculated SPL is 127dB. I don't ever remember clipping this combination, but there were times when I refused to turn it up any more.

SPL results as a combination of both usable power and the cabs Sensitivity rating. The simplified formula is:

[Log(Power) x 10] + 1W Sensitivity Rating.
​

The Ampeg 810E is rated 100dB 1W/1m. With 300W___[Log(300) x 10] + 100 = 124.8dB
The Eden D210XLT is rated 103dB 1W/1m. With 250W___[Log(250) x 10] + 103 = 127db.


Another example. The Trace Elliot ELF 2x8 is rated for 400W at 8 ohms. I believe the sensitivity rating is 97dB 1W/1m, based on the specs of the 16 ohm Faital 8PR200. With 400W___[Log(400) x 10] + 97 = 123dB.

If you add a second identical cab, the combined sensitivity of both cabs is 3dB higher (100dB 1W/1m). Also the total power handling doubles. With 800W___[Log(800) x 10] + 100 = 129dB.

So the calculated SPL of one ELF cranked to the limit would be just under my 124dB minimum. Two would be significantly louder than I would expect to ever use.

The real world SPL these cabs can produce is likely to be less due to power compression. I would not be surprised if the single 2X8 is not enough in some situations. I would probably be fine with two or more and adequate power.

One final example. Years ago I owned an Acme Low-B2. This cab has a rather low sensitivity rating of 93dB 1W/1m and a power rating of 350W. With 350W___[Log(350) x 10] + 93 = 118.4dB. This cab sounded great, but it sometimes ran out of headroom.

With 700W, a pair of Low-B2s would hit a calculated 124.5dB. Never tried it, but I think two would be plenty.

 

[Bobbadfinger]

Thanks for the replies.
Yes, I understand I may be pushing some boundaries (and expectation) with an 1x12 cab, but actually I'm not happy with this 2x10.
Best bet obviously would be add a second SL112 in the future, but these cabs are pretty expensive down here, I'll have to grow another kidney to afford a second one...

So the Aguilar hit with 180W should produce (at least in theory) 122.45dB, which seems not bad, with better quality (hope so) as a bonus.
Not sure I can assume overall efficiency of the 2x10 is just the 91.8dB from the BP102 (not 90.5dB like I thought) + 3dB from the second speaker, for a total 94.8dB, or there's other math involved that must include cab design.
If not, the 2x10 hit with 280W would produce like 119.27dB, which should be quieter anyway.

I'd like to hear from someone with first hand experience on a Sl112 hit with like 200W what it's capable to deliver in the real world...

 

[Wasnex]

Thanks for the replies.
Yes, I understand I may be pushing some boundaries (and expectation) with an 1x12 cab, but actually I'm not happy with this 2x10.
Best bet obviously would be add a second SL112 in the future, but these cabs are pretty expensive down here, I'll have to grow another kidney to afford a second one...

So the Aguilar hit with 180W should produce (at least in theory) 122.45dB, which seems not bad, with better quality (hope so) as a bonus.
Not sure I can assume overall efficiency of the 2x10 is just the 91.8dB from the BP102 (not 90.5dB like I thought) + 3dB from the second speaker, for a total 94.8dB, or there's other math involved that must include cab design.
If not, the 2x10 hit with 280W would produce like 119.27dB, which should be quieter anyway.

I'd like to hear from someone with first hand experience on a Sl112 hit with like 200W what it's capable to deliver in the real world...

One BP102 is rated 92dB (91.8) 1W/1m. A pair in a 210 should give you 95dB 1W/1m. A second 210 should give you 98dB 1W/1m.

The problem here is the BP102 is an 8 ohm driver (AFAIK). So four in parallel is 2 ohms. You could do four in series parallel for 8 ohms, in other words make a 410.

The Aguilar has a higher sensitivity rating than the proposed 410. My guess is the Aguilar will be louder with low wattage, but at some point, a properly designed 410 loaded with BP102s should easily get louder. At 200W the SL112 is getting close to its limit and will likely experience some power compression.

The Eminence medium ported 410 design for the BP102 is rated for 600W, I think it would have much less power compression at 200W than the SL112. So at 200W the 410 would probably be a bit louder, despite having a lower sensitivity rating. Ref: Eminence Designer (parts-express.com)

The closest experience I have is my GK 700RB/112. The amp makes 225W into the 112. I have used it in cover bands. It got the job done, but it was a bit frustrating to play with such limited headroom. The rig felt extremely compressed and at some point, turning it up further just seemed to make it more compressed while producing little to no additional volume.

My guess is the 700RB/112 can hit about 119dB, so the Aguilar with 180W should be an improvement. Whether the Aguilar SL112 is loud enough will depend somewhat on the types of gigs you. I would prefer to have a bit more headroom.

 

[Bobbadfinger]

Actually a 4x10 is out of question.
All I wanna move is the 2x10 or preferably the 1x12.
Maybe a middle of the road solution would be swapping those BP102 for more efficient speakers. It seems almost anything fits that category...

 

[Wasnex]

Actually a 4x10 is out of question.
All I wanna move is the 2x10 or preferably the 1x12.
Maybe a middle of the road solution would be swapping those BP102 for more efficient speakers. It seems almost anything fits that category...

The speaker cabinet must be designed around the TS parameters of the drivers. So you need to consider a lot more than driver Sensitivity to get good results. Throwing a random set of drivers into the cab will most likely be wasted money.

The Eminence 2510 has a 97.3dB sensitivity rating. A pair should push the sensitivity up to about 100dB 1W/m, so slightly higher than the Aguilar SL112. Powerhandling for a medium 210 with this driver is 200W VS 250 for the Aguilar. So you are really not gaining any significant headroom.

As I mentioned, I was happy with the Eden D210XLT. I could hear just fine. But my rig served only as my personal monitor and this cab was not expected to carry the room, as we had full PA support. I set the cab up on a rolling rack and tilted it back to aim at my ears. If I needed to carry the room, I would have used both the 410 and the 210 with 500W total.

 

[Bobbadfinger]

The speaker cabinet must be designed around the TS parameters of the drivers. So you need to consider a lot more than driver Sensitivity to get good results. Throwing a random set of drivers into the cab will most likely be wasted money.

I'm aware of that, but I'm not even sure this "Ampeg" cab was designed around those BP102s...Bought it used; looks tuned around 60Hz, but honestly I like it better with ports closed, probably rising it to 100Hz or so, make it less boomy, kinda of a poor's man HPF...
Major problem in Brazil is cost and availability; found a pair of Deltalite 2510 (first version) at a great price, if they don't fit the cab better I can move them with a profit...

 

[Lostgallifreyan]

Major problem in Brazil is cost and availability; found a pair of Deltalite 2510 (first version) at a great price, if they don't fit the cab better I can move them with a profit...

That's maybe your best answer... trade a few things you know you can earn on, enough to get something better. The cab really must be designed for the drivers, or the results WILL be worse, and you'll regret it.

You ruled out a 4x10, but it's worth aiming to get one, partly because the SPL will be better, and you'll save plenty on amp cost, but the other main reason is that 4x10 is more directional, it will project sound much better. Just don't stand too close to it if you want to hear it at its best. If you want a deep sound, put it on the ground so boundary effect helps. If you want it bright, raise it up. Using two 2x10's also works, but that's even heavier and not likely to get any better than a 4x10.

If availability really is tough to solve, you might be able to get someone to do accurate measurements of the cab so you can get spare drivers from the maker, then build the box yourself.

 

[dbsfgyd1]

It's not a simple answer.

I prefer rig that can produce at least 124dB (calculated). I don't necessarily need to play that loud. In fact, I am only willing to turn up so much. If a 124dB rig can't cut through, I am not really interested in playing any louder.

The frequency response of the cab is an important factor. The calculated SPL of an Ampeg SVT and 810E at 300W is 124.8dB. But I have a hard time hearing myself through an 810E without totally blowing out the room. In other words if I can hear myself through this rig, everyone else probably thinks I am way too loud.

My last touring rig used a 250W per channel power amp and Eden XLT series cabs. Most of the time I used a D210XLT and left the D410XLT at home. The D210XLT has a higher sensitivity rating than an Ampeg 810E. With 250W the calculated SPL is 127dB. I don't ever remember clipping this combination, but there were times when I refused to turn it up any more.

SPL results as a combination of both usable power and the cabs Sensitivity rating. The simplified formula is:

[Log(Power) x 10] + 1W Sensitivity Rating.
​

The Ampeg 810E is rated 100dB 1W/1m. With 300W___[Log(300) x 10] + 100 = 124.8dB
The Eden D210XLT is rated 103dB 1W/1m. With 250W___[Log(250) x 10] + 103 = 127db.


Another example. The Trace Elliot ELF 2x8 is rated for 400W at 8 ohms. I believe the sensitivity rating is 97dB 1W/1m, based on the specs of the 16 ohm Faital 8PR200. With 400W___[Log(400) x 10] + 97 = 123dB.

If you add a second identical cab, the combined sensitivity of both cabs is 3dB higher (100dB 1W/1m). Also the total power handling doubles. With 800W___[Log(800) x 10] + 100 = 129dB.

So the calculated SPL of one ELF cranked to the limit would be just under my 124dB minimum. Two would be significantly louder than I would expect to ever use.

The real world SPL these cabs can produce is likely to be less due to power compression. I would not be surprised if the single 2X8 is not enough in some situations. I would probably be fine with two or more and adequate power.

One final example. Years ago I owned an Acme Low-B2. This cab has a rather low sensitivity rating of 93dB 1W/1m and a power rating of 350W. With 350W___[Log(350) x 10] + 93 = 118.4dB. This cab sounded great, but it sometimes ran out of headroom.

With 700W, a pair of Low-B2s would hit a calculated 124.5dB. Never tried it, but I think two would be plenty.

Wasenex,

Thanks much for the info on the Eden D-210-XLT. You wouldn't happen to have the numbers for Eden's D-210 - XST would you? Recently bought a Mesa WD-800 that puts out 400 watts into an 8ohm cab. I play pretty flat with the HPF at 85hz. I'd like to know approximately how many dBs I'm creating. I have plenty of FOH support, and this will be my fist gig. I play with 25dB cut ear filters so at times it's hard to place my balance. My first gig is coming up in Mid December.

please advise. Thanks a million!

 

[Wasnex]

Wasenex,

Thanks much for the info on the Eden D-210-XLT. You wouldn't happen to have the numbers for Eden's D-210 - XST would you? Recently bought a Mesa WD-800 that puts out 400 watts into an 8ohm cab. I play pretty flat with the HPF at 85hz. I'd like to know approximately how many dBs I'm creating. I have plenty of FOH support, and this will be my fist gig. I play with 25dB cut ear filters so at times it's hard to place my balance. My first gig is coming up in Mid December.

please advise. Thanks a million!

The D210XST sensitivity rating is 103dB 1W/1m and it has a 500W power rating.

With 400W [Log(400) x 10] + 103 = 129dB.

 

[Jones64]

Not really responding to the question, but I wanted to say the band laid down a nice pocket. Great job, I would have never suspected you recently moved over from guitar as you have rythym section time.

In terms of the loudness question, as most would say more watts the better as it is nice to have some in the tank. I would look on craigslist and pawn shops for an amp with more power. Maybe pickup something that is 10 or 15 years old around 350 to 500 watts and out of vogue now. If you don't mind some weight deals are to be had. I bet there is an audience for that Gnome amp. I never thought the SL was really loud, or maybe better to say didn't seem thick to me. I also think two 10's will feel louder, fuller and throw better than the SL, but the SL will likely reproduce things more accurately. Pick up a Joyo American Sound for $25 bucks and add some grind and I think you will cut through. Good luck and I will look to see what you settle on.

 

[Pocket Dave]

If you're looking at lightweight combos that pack a punch, the 210 Fender Rumble 500 and 210 Ampeg RB210 would both have no trouble keeping up with that band. Plus they're both pretty easy to dial up vintage rock bass tones.

 

[Bodeeni]

I flip back and forth between a Genz Benz Shuttle 1-12 and a SWR Goliath Jr 2-10 which I consider my big rig. The 1-12 is close but does not seem to put out the volume.
I used the SWR 2-10 for about 20 years of bar gigs with a rock trio with no issues, but we were not crazy loud. Of course a big issue with the 12 is it is 8 ohms and the 2-10 is 4, so a big power boost. But still the 2-10 is more speaker and louder. I tried using the 1-12 and it worked OK but I always felt the need to add a cab or bleed it through the PA. So my experience is I can really push the 2-10 and am not as confident with a single high end 12. The GB 12 cab does sound better than the SWR

 

[Bobbadfinger]

You ruled out a 4x10, but it's worth aiming to get one, partly because the SPL will be better, and you'll save plenty on amp cost...

Actually I have two (!) 4x10 cabs in my house (selling them for a friend that moved to Netherlands).
One is a Soundwave and the other an regular Ampeg (HE ?). Don't found them "great" to be honest; another friend has an Aguilar 4x10 that seems to play circles on both, tone and volumewise, which caught my interest in the SL112. Actually I could get the Ampeg 4x10 much cheaper than the SL112...but my back prevents me to have it, really.

Not really responding to the question, but I wanted to say the band laid down a nice pocket. Great job, I would have never suspected you recently moved over from guitar as you have rythym section time.

In terms of the loudness question, as most would say more watts the better as it is nice to have some in the tank. I would look on craigslist and pawn shops for an amp with more power. Maybe pickup something that is 10 or 15 years old around 350 to 500 watts and out of vogue now. If you don't mind some weight deals are to be had. I bet there is an audience for that Gnome amp. I never thought the SL was really loud, or maybe better to say didn't seem thick to me. I also think two 10's will feel louder, fuller and throw better than the SL, but the SL will likely reproduce things more accurately. Pick up a Joyo American Sound for $25 bucks and add some grind and I think you will cut through. Good luck and I will look to see what you settle on.

Actually that's not me on bass, I still play guitar on this band, just joined the trio after a few songs.
At this point, portability is king to me; already had bigger/old fashioned amps (70's Acoustic etc), but sold them in favor of mini amps. And the type of gigs I'll probably get will be small stages to no stages, so the smaller the better phisically speaking. That's the reason right now I'm aiming at a GOOD 1x12, or "fix" my 2x10 tone with a better speaker; besides I have to deal with scarcity of products available in Brazil, and cost. A Rumble 500, for instance, is US$2k...

 

[burgerdj]

I have no idea what the sensitivity rating is, but my little Mesa Walkabout 12 has provided plenty of righteous tone and volume in near-field monitoring situations with FOH on mid-sized stages. It holds its own without FOH on smaller gigs no problem.

 

[Bobbadfinger]

I have no idea what the sensitivity rating is, but my little Mesa Walkabout 12 has provided plenty of righteous tone and volume in near-field monitoring situations with FOH on mid-sized stages. It holds its own without FOH on smaller gigs no problem.

Yes, heard great things about newer Mesa stuff (specially on TB !), but there's no importer down here anymore AFAIK, nor did i saw any on the used market.

 

[burgerdj]

Yes, heard great things about newer Mesa stuff (specially on TB !), but there's no importer down here anymore AFAIK, nor did i saw any on the used market.

Ah, just saw that you are in Brazil! What are the common brands available to you? That will help with recommendations.

 

[Bobbadfinger]

Basically Fender/Ampeg/Ashdown/Peavey/Aguilar for new stuff. But doesn't mean all line is available all the time.
And expect prices two or three times higher than in USA, in despite that average salaries are half...
Yes, the blues...

 

[dbsfgyd1]

The D210XST sensitivity rating is 103dB 1W/1m and it has a 500W power rating.

With 400W [Log(400) x 10] + 103 = 129dB.

Thanks for the computation. Definitely loud enough for anything I'm going to get into, with the exception of an outdoor gig with no band shell, walls, or no FOH support.

Thanks again!