Double Bass Minor chord progressions in major or minor?

[johnReeve]

I've been writing out progression to songs so that I can learn them in all keys. I was showing what I was doing to my wife (who is an orchestral player and conductor who knows a lot more than me about theory but usually plays written parts instead of charts), and she was trying to convince me that I should spell chord progressions so that they resolve to I or i, whereas I had just been always assuming that the key of the song is I or vi even if it is a minor key song.

To give an example, I had been playing Autumn Leaves on the piano in G or em, and it picks up into something like this for the A part:

am, D, G, C, am/f#, B, em

so I was calling am ii and thinking about the song as being in the key of G, whereas she thinks it is easier to think of am as iv and think about the song as being in the key of e minor.

Any thoughts about what is easier or more usual or better to read / transcribe?

 

[Leo Smith]

She might be more on the correct or common-sense side.

If a tune is generally minor, you should write your number chart to reflect that in order to show the harmonic direction. There's a whole section of music theory study devoted to that and all the different flavours of minor chord movement and modes. Throughout all of it, the principal root tone / key / chord is called "i".

Autumn Leaves might be a bad example for writing out as numerals since the chords stay in Aeolian mode (except for the bit in measures 27 and 28). Some jazzers are stuck on Dorian mode, which might make them interpret "vi7", aka C7, as C#7 or even C#min7b5. Also, "vii" too often refers to the leading tone (which in E minor is D#), but modally speaking would actually be D natural.

How about this - think of a minor blues. You wouldn't chart it as vi - ii - vi - VI7 - ii .... and so on, would you? Hopefully you'd write it as === i - iv - i - I7 - iv - iv - i... and so on.

A further suggestion - use arabic numerals in the Nashville style. So, for the minor blues - 1m - 4m - 1m - 17 (the 7 is superscript.....) .... and so on.

 

[brianrost]

I had been playing Autumn Leaves on the piano in G or em

Here's where you are already in trouble, it's either in G or it's in E minor but it can't be both.

Just because the natural minor scale in E is the same as the major scale in G does not make them the same key

 

[SteveCS]

Here's where you are already in trouble, it's either in G or it's in E minor but it can't be both.

Just because the natural minor scale in E is the same as the major scale in G does not make them the same key

They are not the same key but they do have the same key signature - Em is Relative Minor to G.

 

[johnReeve]

Okay, so I can accept that the resolving chord is the key of the song... what she and you folks are saying makes sense, though it's not the way I've been thinking when playing. Maybe it will help clarify some things I've been struggling with in playing minor tunes.

Is it the case that (and I'm still learning, so feel free to correct me) that although G (ionian) and em (aeolian) have the same key signature, in a "minor" tune, the em is the i chord because the mode of the tune is aeolian? And that in much simple music the G (assuming that same one F# as the key signature) is the I because the mode of the tune is ionian?

So, if, (and I really haven't given this much thought), you could have a tune that is D dorian, the D would be "I" and the key signature would be the same as C?

 

[TroyK]

On the stand, in a session, when someone calls Autumn Leaves, they will call it in "E Minor" or "G Minor". The academic distinction that E Minor is actually the same key signature as G Major will not be part of the conversation, though it's good for you to know that in the back of your own head.

Practical jazz vernacular. That song is in a minor key.

 

[Leo Smith]

Is it the case that (and I'm still learning, so feel free to correct me) that although G (ionian) and em (aeolian) have the same key signature, in a "minor" tune, the em is the i chord because the mode of the tune is aeolian? And that in much simple music the G (assuming that same one F# as the key signature) is the I because the mode of the tune is ionian?

Yes. This is safe place to start.

So, if, (and I really haven't given this much thought), you could have a tune that is D dorian, the D would be "I" and the key signature would be the same as C?

Yes, almost -- you'd need to say Dm, and the "I" would need to be correctly called "i" . (Lower case roman numerals signify minor chords.)

 

[TroyK]

Just to break your process here. With Autumn Leaves, I'm not sure you should be writing charts in all 12 keys. Learn it in your reference key, sounds like that's Em. Then learn it in Gmin, because that's the other common reference key. Then playing it in the other 10, through the cycle of 5ths or ascending keys 1/2 step at a time or something. You can bog your brain down in engineering these transpositions, but with some tunes, and Autumn Leaves is one of them, you have an opportunity to hear the root progression and melody regardless of where you start and adjust what you play accordingly.

Blues and Minor Blues would be on that same list, maybe first. Pick your favorite blues progression and then play it in all 12 keys without staring at a page. Someone on will should "Blues in Ab" at you some day and you don't want roman numerals going through your head while they're counting the tune in.

Just my $ .02.

 

[Leo Smith]

+1 and well said to what TroyK just added. There are certain tunes anyone should know completely cold in (hopefully) all 12 keys. Autumn Leaves, any blues, rhythm changes, All of Me, A Train... come to mind. You get to know them by sound, by working them out in other keys to exercise the brain, ears, and hands.

 

[Mushroo]

Okay, so I can accept that the resolving chord is the key of the song... what she and you folks are saying makes sense, though it's not the way I've been thinking when playing. Maybe it will help clarify some things I've been struggling with in playing minor tunes.

Is it the case that (and I'm still learning, so feel free to correct me) that although G (ionian) and em (aeolian) have the same key signature, in a "minor" tune, the em is the i chord because the mode of the tune is aeolian? And that in much simple music the G (assuming that same one F# as the key signature) is the I because the mode of the tune is ionian?

So, if, (and I really haven't given this much thought), you could have a tune that is D dorian, the D would be "I" and the key signature would be the same as C?

Almost but not quite...

"The mode of the tune is aeolian" is not really a correct statement.

When a song is in a minor key (such as "Autumn Leaves" in E minor for example) the melody might contain notes from any number of modes or scales: aeolian mode, dorian mode, natural minor, melodic minor, harmonic minor, jazz minor, minor pentatonic, etc.

In all of these cases we would simply say "the song is in the key of E minor" and write it with the corresponding minor key signature (so, always 1 sharp for E minor, even if the melody uses notes outside the E natural minor scale).

The more you study jazz, you'll see it is highly unusual for a composition to use only the notes of the aeolian or dorian mode. If nothing else you are going to want the natural 7 leading tone in there at some point to make a V chord. "Autumn Leaves" of course fits with the majority of minor key jazz songs and should not be considered "modal jazz" in any way, shape, or form.

 

[Tom Lane]

And just for the sake of completeness, there are many jazz tunes that are both Major and Minor, switching keys at some point or having a few, 1, 8 or 12 bars, in a different key. It's fairly common for a Minor tune to end in a Major key, for instance. And, one more, there are plenty of jazz tunes that are best considered keyless, because their harmony doesn't fit into a single or even two key signatures. They're usually denoted in the key of C Major or A Minor by the absence of any accidentals at the start of the tune, but they'll have tons of accidentals all through the tune, sometimes using sharps and other times using flats.

I mention it just so you're aware of it when you encounter it. First time through, it appears to break all the rules.

 

[Don Kasper]

"I heard there is a fire here....Where can I dump this gasoline?"
The version below is in G minor (the Dorian form of the Gminor scale is being used, esp. in the bassline of the Intro/Outro vamp).

 

[Tom Lane]

"I heard there is a fire here....Where can I dump this gasoline?"
The version below is in G minor (the Dorian form of the Gminor scale is being used, esp. in the bassline of the Intro/Outro vamp).

Everyone should have heard this recording. I'm always surprised when I come across a jazzer who hasn't but it's a much more common experience than I would have ever guessed.

 

[Mushroo]

And just for the sake of completeness, there are many jazz tunes that are both Major and Minor, switching keys at some point or having a few, 1, 8 or 12 bars, in a different key. It's fairly common for a Minor tune to end in a Major key, for instance. And, one more, there are plenty of jazz tunes that are best considered keyless, because their harmony doesn't fit into a single or even two key signatures. They're usually denoted in the key of C Major or A Minor by the absence of any accidentals at the start of the tune, but they'll have tons of accidentals all through the tune, sometimes using sharps and other times using flats.

I mention it just so you're aware of it when you encounter it. First time through, it appears to break all the rules.

A very informative post.

An important vocabulary word to learn is "modulation" which is when a section of a song temporarily moves to a different key than the home key. "Autumn Leaves" is a really excellent example of this: You could say that every 4 bars it "modulates" between the home key (i or E minor) and the relative major key (III or G major).

E minor and G major are "relative" minor and major scales, meaning they share the same key signature, so we don't need to use a lot of accidentals (sharps and flats not in the key signature) to write a song like "Autumn Leaves." I think what Tom Lane is alluding to is that, often times in jazz, we modulate between keys that don't share a key signature, so we need to write lots of accidentals. A few examples off the top of my head would be keys separated by a half step ("So What" modulates from D minor to Eb minor), whole step ("Tune Up" modulates between D, C, and Bb), or 3rds ("Giant Steps" modulates between Eb, G, and B).

What I was alluding to in my earlier post #10 is simply this: In a minor-key jazz composition, we do not expect strict adherence to the Aeolian Mode, and so therefore accidentals such as natural 6 or natural 7 are idiomatic to the style and do not in and of themselves imply anything unusual is happening with the harmony.

Returning to our example of "Autumn Leaves" we see a perfect illustration of this: C# and D# in the bar 6 melody over the V7 chord. This contradicts John Reeve's close-but-not-quite assumption "E minor is the i chord because the mode of the tune is Aeolian." (E Aeolian would use C and D instead of C# and D#). In fact, a more accurate statement would be "E minor is the i chord because F#min7b5-B7b9-Emin establishes the distinctive sound of a minor ii-V-i progression."

(edit: changed "parallel" to "relative"---good catch Leo Smith!)

 

[Leo Smith]

E minor and G major are "parallel" minor and major scales, meaning they share the same key signature

Not parallel. Relative. Parallel means a major and minor that start from the same note. G major and G minor are parallel keys. G major and E minor are relative keys.

 

[Jeff Bonny]

What's the intent of the tune? Respect that.

 

[johnReeve]

Thanks... lots of good things here.

I'm mostly just trying to figure out a way of naming things that I like, so I'm not hung up on making songs fit theory or theory fit songs.

The advice in general is appreciated.

 

[Tom Lane]

Thanks... lots of good things here.

I'm mostly just trying to figure out a way of naming things that I like, so I'm not hung up on making songs fit theory or theory fit songs.

The advice in general is appreciated.

I mulled over this for the past few days. In the back of my mind was a nagging feeling that what you're proposing - winging it, developing your own shorthand - is a bad idea, but I wasn't really sure until this evening. So, here it is: if you develop your own shorthand for following harmony, you will be at a continual disadvantage with most other musicians. I say "most" because you may very well run into other musicians who've done the same thing; I think that's pretty common, actually, and with those folks, every other player is at the same disadvantage because their system is unique to them. But, if you play with players who were taught at any major academic program or studio system, which is also very likely, you'll be forever playing catchup.

I don't love music theory for theory's sake, and I do believe that a successful musician can play completely by ear, depending on the genre and environment, but, these days, you're most likely to run into players who use the Nashville system, the Berklee system, or even the dreaded Real Book system than player's who have their own invented system.

Like I said, I'm open minded about this stuff because I know what works, works, but I expect that if you don't buckle down and learn one of the major systems, you will regret it more often than not.

And consider this: pro's know all of the systems.

 

[johnReeve]

I was perhaps unclear: I think that adopting the normal ways of thinking about this stuff is the right thing to do... I've been working out a couple of minor key songs as a way to get more into thinking this way.

My point was that I don't expect that a song would stay in a specific mode for its entirety, or that any of the theory stuff totally explains a song, or that it is a good idea to stray from what seems like the "intent" of the song, and largely that my goal is to discover the common ways of describing the stuff I find useful, which I presume that other folks have already developed even if it is new to me.

 

[turf3]

"...the Nashville system, the Berklee system, or even the dreaded Real Book system..."

I know what the Nashville system is; I have played out of the Real Book (although I am not sure what its "system" is, other than writing down the chord names), but I have never heard of "the Berklee system". What is that?