Minor Scales question

[lowplaces]

Last night I buckled down and learned the minor scales.

The book I'm using shows the natural minor, the harmonic minor, and the melodic minor.

For the melodic minor the book showed how to play ascending and descending and I noticed there was a difference in the intervals descending.

No example was given for playing the natural minor and the harmonic minor descending. Can I assume that the natural minor and harmonic minor are played descending in the same manner as the major scale descending ? Same notes ?

 

[Evert]

Yes

 

[lowplaces]

Yes

Ok, good deal.

 

[twinjet]

Last night I buckled down and learned the minor scales.

The book I'm using shows the natural minor, the harmonic minor, and the melodic minor.

For the melodic minor the book showed how to play ascending and descending and I noticed there was a difference in the intervals descending.

No example was given for playing the natural minor and the harmonic minor descending. Can I assume that the natural minor and harmonic minor are played descending in the same manner as the major scale descending ? Same notes ?

Only the melodic minor will have a separate ascent and descent. The other two descents mirror their ascension.

 

[lowplaces]

Only the melodic minor will have a separate ascent and descent. The other two descents mirror their ascension.

Ok then... now I need to sit down and figure out why that is. I've been thinking about that while I'm here at work and I have a feeling that I'll find my answer after seeing the melodic minor written out ascending and descending, and not thinking in terms of half steps and whole steps but rather the qualities of the intervals themselves.

 

[Mushroo]

My advice is, pick a minor key song that you like, and study the **** out of it. J.S. Bach's cello suites have some really lovely use of the minor scale in all its forms, for example.

 

[lowplaces]

My advice is, pick a minor key song that you like, and study the **** out of it. J.S. Bach's cello suites have some really lovely use of the minor scale in all its forms, for example.

I may try that. Not sure I'm ready to analyze songs yet.

 

[JTE]

It's based on why those scales exist and the way they harmonize. Natural minor is the basic minor scale. But when you harmonize it by stacking thirds, you get the same chords as the relative major. So the natural chords in A natural minor or the same as C major. That means you have a G7 as the VII chord pulling your ear to the III chord instead of the i.

Raising the 7th of the natural minor alters the harmony of every chord with that note. So the G7 becomes a G#minb5 and the C becomes a Caug. But the E min7 become E7, pulling your ear to the Amin. That change for harmonic reasons is why it's called harmonic ninor.

However, the minor third between the 6 and 7 sounds awkward melodically (or it sounds like instant Richie Blackmore) so raising the 6th a half step solves that issue. The sound wasn't deemed a problem with descending melodies so classically it is different ascending vs. descending.

 

[MalcolmAmos]

Major 1-2-3-4-5-6-7
Natural minor 1-2-b3-4-5-b6-b7
Harmonic minor 1-2-b3-4-5-b6-7
Melodic minor 1-2-b3-4-5-6-7

 

[lowplaces]

It's based on why those scales exist and the way they harmonize. Natural minor is the basic minor scale. But when you harmonize it by stacking thirds, you get the same chords as the relative major. So the natural chords in A natural minor or the same as C major. That means you have a G7 as the VII chord pulling your ear to the III chord instead of the i.

Raising the 7th of the natural minor alters the harmony of every chord with that note. So the G7 becomes a G#minb5 and the C becomes a Caug. But the E min7 become E7, pulling your ear to the Amin. That change for harmonic reasons is why it's called harmonic ninor.

However, the minor third between the 6 and 7 sounds awkward melodically (or it sounds like instant Richie Blackmore) so raising the 6th a half step solves that issue. The sound wasn't deemed a problem with descending melodies so classically it is different ascending vs. descending.

Will I hear the three minor scales on a Blackmore's Night album ?

I have Under a Violet Moon but haven't listened to it for a few years.

 

[lowplaces]

Major 1-2-3-4-5-6-7
Natural minor 1-2-b3-4-5-b6-b7
Harmonic minor 1-2-b3-4-5-b6-7
Melodic minor 1-2-b3-4-5-6-7

Yes, that's exactly what I was planning to do when I get home. Write them out like that.

It's in the book as well but I have found writing it out myself helps me retain it. Not just the minor scale intervals but several other aspects of theory.

 

[Mushroo]

I may try that. Not sure I'm ready to analyze songs yet.

Start with easy and familiar minor key songs like "Greensleeves" or "House of the Rising Sun." Notice how the 6th and/or 7th degree of the minor scale can be minor or major depending on the harmony of the moment. For example, in the key of C Minor, you can play the major 7th B natural when the harmony goes to G7 dominant V chord.

 

[ba55i5t]

One thing to note that never clicked for me until a later stage was that the minor7 chord in jazz is not a 'natural minor' but is instead usually meant to imply the Dorian mode (at least in 251s, and So What).

Another thing about the minors is that both the melodic minor and harmonic minor have their own set of modes attached to them. Melodic minor modes are used more frequently than harmonic minor modes - see players like Hadrien Feraud for examples of the melodic minor and its usage in jazz.

 

[Groove Master]

Last night I buckled down and learned the minor scales.

The book I'm using shows the natural minor, the harmonic minor, and the melodic minor.

For the melodic minor the book showed how to play ascending and descending and I noticed there was a difference in the intervals descending.

No example was given for playing the natural minor and the harmonic minor descending. Can I assume that the natural minor and harmonic minor are played descending in the same manner as the major scale descending ? Same notes ?

For practical use, learn the melodic minor scale in the ascending version while coming back. The other way around is the classical way of practicing that scale but in an harmonic context, the way we can apply the modes of the melodic minor scales is only practical coming back the same way as going up.

Hope this makes sense

 

[brianrost]

Ok then... now I need to sit down and figure out why that is.

The transition from the major 7 to the root (octave) is called a cadence. It's the strongest melodic resolution possible. Of the minor scales, only the melodic minor has a cadence. The lack of a cadence is what makes many melodies in minor keys or modes sound "unsettled" because there is no resolution of the harmony.

While music theory states that the descending melodic minor uses the same notes as the harmonic minor, you will hear jazz musicians using the major 7th descending as well because it's, eh, melodic.

 

[Spin Doctor]

Ok then... now I need to sit down and figure out why that is. I've been thinking about that while I'm here at work and I have a feeling that I'll find my answer after seeing the melodic minor written out ascending and descending, and not thinking in terms of half steps and whole steps but rather the qualities of the intervals themselves.

In modern music, Melodic Minor is the same ascending and descending. So you don't really need to worry about learning that difference, unless you are working on classical music.

One thing you may want to be aware of: All of those minor scales are simply variations of the major scale.
Natural Minor is simply the notes of a major scale, starting on the 6th degree.
Melodic Minor is the Dorian mode, with a raised 7th.
Harmonic Minor is the Aeolian mode with a raised 7th.

So in the main, it's very important to have a very solid understanding of the major scale. That understanding requires considerably more involvement than simply running it up and down one note after another. If you are able to achieve that understanding of the major scale, the minors and every other "exotic" scale will be MUCH easier to understand and work with.

 

[oren]

As has been noted, in jazz, when we talk about melodic minor we are referring to what classical musicians call the ascending melodic minor. It's perhaps most widely used for some of its modes which are very useful for playing over dominant 7th chords.

I think of a cadence as being more than just the melodic 7-1 movement. I like this definition from openmusictheory.com: "A cadence is a point of arrival that punctuates the end of a musical unit, such as a phrase, theme, large formal section, or movement."

The most usual cadence in Western music is from a dominant V chord to a I chord, which contains the motion @brianrost referred to, from the 7 to the 1. For example, a G7 - Cmaj7 cadence has the very strong resolution of B to C in it, as well as another strong resolution of F to E.

Lots to learn and think about here, and it's good to get those scales under the fingers!

 

[MalcolmAmos]

This helped me.

The V and vii are both dominant. The vii wants to go to the I tonic, but, is no hurry to get there and is often used as a move somewhere chord, like in a turn-a-round. vii-iii-vi-ii-V7-I. Add a b7 to the V, making it a dominant seven chord and it wants to resolve to the tonic I right now. So if you want to resolve quickly use the V or V7 and if you want to lead somewhere else let the vii start the movement for you.

The ii and the IV are both sub-dominant chords and want to go to a dominant chord. As they both want the same thing they can sub for each other. Notice one is minor and the other major. What key are you in? That kinda decides which to use.

That leaves the iii and vi. The iii being "the middle cord" can be a lead somewhere chord, the vi is a neutral chord in a major key. The iii likes to take the vi with it, as it moves. If you have a iii you probably will have a vi.

The ii and or the vi are used in major progressions to add a little color. Little spice always helps.

Now all of this is movement, has nothing to do with harmony. The chords should provide harmony and movement. Harmony happens when the notes of the melody are shared with the active chord. This sharing can be done with extension, i.e. get your movement first then go back and get some active melody notes into the chord. Extensions are the easy way to do that. For example Bb6(9).

Because of the sharing of melody notes (treble clef) with the bass line (chord's) notes leads to those "fancy notes" found in jazz and other more complicated pieces.

At my skill level I read a chord from the left to the right and get what I can into my bass line, leaving the fancy extensions to the solo instruments. That Bb6(9) Probably will be a 1-5-6-8

 

[oren]

Yes.
What about plagal cadence?

My understanding is that a plagal cadence is a IV-I resolution, which I was taught as being called a gospel ending, or as you may sing "a-men"

Interestingly, it also features the (in the key of C) F resolving to the E.

 

[EarnestTBass]

QUOTE="lowplaces, post: 21444262, member: 287365"]Ok then... now I need to sit down and figure out why that is. I've been thinking about that while I'm here at work and I have a feeling that I'll find my answer after seeing the melodic minor written out ascending and descending, and not thinking in terms of half steps and whole steps but rather the qualities of the intervals themselves.[/QUOTE]

Schoenberg first published "Theory of Harmony" in 1911. He has a few paragraphs which offer one explanation for how the 'one minor scale up/another down' developed. This is not light casual reading. But you asked about it. I have attached a few pages that might provide a look back in history.