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minor third interval loud tremolo sound

Feb 15, 2021
146
216
NYC
When I play two notes that are a minor third apart on my bass (Fender Mustang), I get a loud, low frequency wavering or tremolo if I alternate between the notes without muting either of them (playing more like a chord than an arpeggio). This very low frequency sound, which I assume is related to a beat frequency from the two notes, goes away if I only use the bridge pickup, thus eliminating the very lows.

Is this normal? Is the solution to just use that bridge pickup, or to adjust the bass response of the amplifier?

Thanks

Michael
nyc
 
You are hearing a beat note that your rig probably can't really handle. Part of learning to play bass is to learn where you can and where you can't play certain intervals. You can always play octaves - the difference (or beat) frequency of two notes an octave apart is the SAME frequency as the lower note - if you rig can handle the lower note, it can handle that note and an octave above. The next closest harmonic interval to consider is a fifth - when you play two notes a fifth apart, the higher one is one and a half times the frequency of the lower note. The difference (or beat note) is an octave below the lower note. Low in the range of your bass, your rig most likely won't handle this well. But if you go an octave up, it probably will do it just fine. Your homework is to try playin g a fifth interval lower and lower until it doesn't sound good, the go up a fret or two, and realize that's as low as you can play a fifth interval. For a fourth, a major third, and a minor third, you will need to go progressively higher in the range of your bass to play each interval - as the notes are closer together, the difference frequency is lower, so you need to go higher for that interval to work.

You're finding that a minor third doesn't work well in much of the range of your instrument. Yes, that's right - it's not something you fix, it's a limitation that you need to learn to work around.

Or... you could just play guitar. It's easier because you just don't have access to notes low enough to make this much of a problem. Yes, that's right, bass is (on this score at least) harder than guitar.
 
Welcome to equal tempered intonation. To be able to play in all keys, fretted instruments have compromise intonation that makes all keys sort of equally out of tune. Fretless instruments can play pure intervals in any key by fingering certain notes sharp or flat. The lower the notes you play, the more beating you will get. Just the nature of the beast.

Read more about temperament here.
 
Is it the same effect you get when tuning up using harmonics? If so, it could be that your bridge isn't properly intonated.

Don't think the problem is intonation; I recently checked that. I think it's the beat frequency between the two notes.

Welcome to equal tempered intonation...

Very interesting. I understand the concept of equal tempered, but didn't realize it also plays into what happens when you play two notes simultaneously.
 
Don't think the problem is intonation; I recently checked that. I think it's the beat frequency between the two notes.

Very interesting. I understand the concept of equal tempered, but didn't realize it also plays into what happens when you play two notes simultaneously.

There are two things at play here and it might be worthwhile to clearly distinguish them:

1) The beats that you get from playing an interval, i.e. two signals with two different fundamental frequencies.
These will always produce a beat frequency at the difference between the original frequencies (f_beat = |f_2-f_1|). This happens regardless of intonation.

2) If intonation is off, then you can have an additional effect: The overtone spectra of both fretted notes can contain the "same note". If any two of these frequencies lie very close to, but not exactly on the frequencies produced by the spectrum of the other then you'll get a beat with a very low frequency, perhaps less than a Hertz. This will result in a perceptible warbling of the intensity.

E.g. You are trying to play a fretted A2 at 110.0 Hz and fretted E3 at 164.8 Hz (tempered). Now ideally (neglecting all kinds of anharmonicities, such as string stiffness, pickup response, finger pressure or anything else that will come to bear in a real situation) the next notes in the overtone spectrum of the A2 are A3, and E4 at 330 Hz, which is also in the overtone spectrum of the fretted E3. But since the fretted E3 was at the tempered 164.8 instead of the harmonic 165.0 Hz its overtone E4 is at 328.6 Hz (1.4 Hz flat), This now gives a beat frequency of 1.4 Hz between these two (strong) overtones, and can lead to a perceptible warbling at 1.4 Hz.

Poor intonation will have a similar effect of shifting two frequencies that "should ideally be the same" such that the beats in the 0.5-3 Hz range become noticeable.

This will happen only on strong components of the overtone spectrum, though, and the prevailing anharmonicities will prevent us from hearing strong beats of that nature in most situations (Or rather, there will be so many of them that again we hear an average volume instead of any kind of beat). Lucky for us, otherwise we'd have a real hard time setting up and playing any fretted stringed instrument.

Also a little caveat, this is just one aspect of what can go on here. I just wanted to clarify that we are talking about two slightly different aspects of beats here.
 
There are two things at play here and it might be worthwhile to clearly distinguish them...

This is really very helpful.

How many sustained minor thirds do you normally play in a set?

It just came up in a song ("Slow Ride by Foghat") and it's really alternating between two notes that are a minor third apart, but I wasn't muting them properly so they would ring out together.
 
There are two things at play here and it might be worthwhile to clearly distinguish them:

1) The beats that you get from playing an interval, i.e. two signals with two different fundamental frequencies.
These will always produce a beat frequency at the difference between the original frequencies (f_beat = |f_2-f_1|). This happens regardless of intonation.

2) If intonation is off, then you can have an additional effect: The overtone spectra of both fretted notes can contain the "same note". If any two of these frequencies lie very close to, but not exactly on the frequencies produced by the spectrum of the other then you'll get a beat with a very low frequency, perhaps less than a Hertz. This will result in a perceptible warbling of the intensity.

E.g. You are trying to play a fretted A2 at 110.0 Hz and fretted E3 at 164.8 Hz (tempered). Now ideally (neglecting all kinds of anharmonicities, such as string stiffness, pickup response, finger pressure or anything else that will come to bear in a real situation) the next notes in the overtone spectrum of the A2 are A3, and E4 at 330 Hz, which is also in the overtone spectrum of the fretted E3. But since the fretted E3 was at the tempered 164.8 instead of the harmonic 165.0 Hz its overtone E4 is at 328.6 Hz (1.4 Hz flat), This now gives a beat frequency of 1.4 Hz between these two (strong) overtones, and can lead to a perceptible warbling at 1.4 Hz.

Poor intonation will have a similar effect of shifting two frequencies that "should ideally be the same" such that the beats in the 0.5-3 Hz range become noticeable.

This will happen only on strong components of the overtone spectrum, though, and the prevailing anharmonicities will prevent us from hearing strong beats of that nature in most situations (Or rather, there will be so many of them that again we hear an average volume instead of any kind of beat). Lucky for us, otherwise we'd have a real hard time setting up and playing any fretted stringed instrument.

Also a little caveat, this is just one aspect of what can go on here. I just wanted to clarify that we are talking about two slightly different aspects of beats here.

I understand this 100%. I have experienced what you are describing...but I had never thought about it to this degree. Talkbass is awesome...I have been playing bass for 30 years now and I still learn new things regularly from visiting this site. Thanks for this info.
 
Don't think the problem is intonation; I recently checked that. I think it's the beat frequency between the two notes.

Very interesting. I understand the concept of equal tempered, but didn't realize it also plays into what happens when you play two notes simultaneously.

This is why I mentioned intonation. This is the problem with equal temperament and fretted instruments. Intonation is a 'best case scenario' type affair. intervals are not perfect so most of us intonate and tune the instrument as well as we can and hope for the best. Most people will intonate their instrument based on octaves and tune-up based on 5th and 7th fret harmonics. But this isn't helpful for other intervals. For tuning critical scenarios it's not unusual for people to use a different method to intonate the saddles and/or use a 'sweetened tuning' to optimise a certain interval. The other option is to have the instrument modified with a different tuning system such as the Buzz Feiten system.
 
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When I play two notes that are a minor third apart on my bass (Fender Mustang), I get a loud, low frequency wavering or tremolo if I alternate between the notes without muting either of them (playing more like a chord than an arpeggio). This very low frequency sound, which I assume is related to a beat frequency from the two notes, goes away if I only use the bridge pickup, thus eliminating the very lows.

Is this normal? Is the solution to just use that bridge pickup, or to adjust the bass response of the amplifier?

Thanks

Michael
nyc

Minor 3rds sound awful on the bass if played against the root (no mute) due to the low pitch, and will vibrate in a way that produces that warbling. I suggest not doing it. Bridge pickup is transmitting less bass information, that's why it's less pronounced if you use it.

Looking up at thread now. Yes, mute. And also take left hand pressure off the first note.
 
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