Mixed cabs, double dog dare me

[Stewie]

Very Happy with me 4X10, 1X15 rig. Not worried about blowing the 15, I doubt I ever send any where near 100 watts at the pile.

 

[bryan gibson]

Ya got 'em...
they're paid for...
impedance is within spec....
....plug 'em and and see what happens

 

[Nev375]

OK. Fine. I double-dog dare you to mix woofers in your bedroom. But I'm not going to accept responsibility for what results from it.

 

[higain617]

Once upon a time, I had an SWR Goliath II on top of a Son of Bertha (the dreaded 4x10/1x15). It worked but the 2x15 I replaced it with was better and louder.

 

[lfmn16]

Well, that's sort of what I said, but not exactly; I said I missed the fullness and warmth of a (good) 15 in speaker but I didn't mention anything about 10's; although 15's ARE warmer than 10's; there, now I said it; cuz you need more than one 10-inch speaker (obviously) to equal the warmth of one 15' speaker.

You said, but it's not true.

 

[arbitrary]

It works awesomelyness

 

[SactoBass]

15's ARE warmer than 10's; there, now I said it; cuz you need more than one 10-inch speaker (obviously) to equal the warmth of one 15' speaker.

The only thing speaker diameter tells a person is how big around the speaker is. Everything else is subject to the designer of the speaker (lows, mids, highs, SPL, excursion limits, thermal wattage capability, mechanical wattage capability, Thiele-Small parameters, etc.)

 

[SactoBass]

It works awesomelyness

Lots of AB (awesomelyness Bergness) goin' on there!

 

[Meghans Dad]

Have any of you guys ever played a GK 115 Neo paired with GK 212?

No, but have paired a GK 115 with a GK 410; was playing through a 2001RB, mildly cranked and I loved it, as did the rest of the band.

 

[micguy]

So, it's not really a mixing driver sizes thing; it's a mixing different cabs thing. The issue revolves around phase response at low frequencies, as well as excursion limts. You could have wildly different sized drivers (a110 cab and a 215, for example), and have them work fine together. On the other hand, you could have two different 112's, and have issues with cancellation at low frequencies, or blowing one driver due to mechanical overexcursion.

There's no simple rule - to accurately predict success or failure, you have to have some speaker design chops.

 

[Lobster11]

There seems to be an almost-consensus that a pair of matching cabs is always a good bet, whereas a pair of mismatched cabs might or might not work well. Still, there are lots of folks claiming that they've used such-and-such a mixed combination and it sounded great. I don't doubt their word, but to them I would raise the following questions:

1. Have you compared your mixed-cab setup side-by-side with comparable matched-pairs setups? For example, if you're using a 1x15 + 2x10, have you compared this with a pair of (the same) matching 1x15s and/or a pair of (the same) matching 2x10s? If not, it could be that although your mixed-cab setup sounds good, one or both of the matched-pair setups might sound even better.

2. When standing in front of the rig, you are likely to hear whichever cab is on top much more than the one on the bottom, just as function of it being up closer to your ears. Are you sure that the setup doesn't sound good to you simply because the top cab sounds good to you -- in which case a matched pair of those might sound better?

3. Are you judging how good it sounds to you when standing in front of it, or have you tested how it sounds to the audience all around the room? What sounds good on stage isn't necessarily what sounds good in the room (or different parts of the room).

 

[arbitrary]

1. No I have not. But two berg 6x10 would sound good. How could it not? Better I'm not sure....but likely different.
2. I shut the 2x15 on the bottom off it sounds less better
3. Around the room

What if I get matching berg ht322s or that nv 1x25/3x10cab?

 

[ThisBass]

Tell me again why I shouldn't mix cabs? This is not a joke, I'm serious, especially when I'm just jamming/playing in my room; Does it really matter then? Is it only frowned upon when you're playing out live? Am I better off just getting two 1x15 cabs instead of getting a 1x15 to add with one of my 2x10's? I really miss the fullness and warmth that you can only get with a (really good) 15 inch speaker; ala Mesa Boogie, Ampeg ... unless of course you're running an 8x10 "fridge" which is entirely way too big for me at this time.

Do you feel something going wrong with your current setup or something wrong with your environment?
IMO as you are jamming in a smallish room "chamber" you are strongly overwhelmed by reverberation sound. IME its beneficial to have not too much rig for the task. May be a 112 cab will do a pretty good job for you.

 

[agedhorse]

2x10 plus 1x15 works on a power level as they can take about the same. Again the sound of the pairing is a crap shoot.

The sound pairing is NOT a crapshoot if the designer knows what they are doing. It's no more a crapshoot than picking ANY cabinet that a random, unqualified or unknown designer might offer. I have heard some pretty horrendous single driver cabinets that were clearly poorly designed but marketed as something "special". The word special can be used in a variety of ways.

So, it's not really a mixing driver sizes thing; it's a mixing different cabs thing. The issue revolves around phase response at low frequencies, as well as excursion limts. You could have wildly different sized drivers (a110 cab and a 215, for example), and have them work fine together. On the other hand, you could have two different 112's, and have issues with cancellation at low frequencies, or blowing one driver due to mechanical overexcursion.

There's no simple rule - to accurately predict success or failure, you have to have some speaker design chops.

Right, and this is what separates the premium speaker builders from the "average Joe" builder. In my specific case I have been doing this for a very long time, have the math/science education to understand exactly what is going on, and the design/test equipment to be able to model and verify the performance to the model in ways well beyond the "average Joe" designer.

There seems to be an almost-consensus that a pair of matching cabs is always a good bet, whereas a pair of mismatched cabs might or might not work well. Still, there are lots of folks claiming that they've used such-and-such a mixed combination and it sounded great. I don't doubt their word, but to them I would raise the following questions:

1. Have you compared your mixed-cab setup side-by-side with comparable matched-pairs setups? For example, if you're using a 1x15 + 2x10, have you compared this with a pair of (the same) matching 1x15s and/or a pair of (the same) matching 2x10s? If not, it could be that although your mixed-cab setup sounds good, one or both of the matched-pair setups might sound even better.

2. When standing in front of the rig, you are likely to hear whichever cab is on top much more than the one on the bottom, just as function of it being up closer to your ears. Are you sure that the setup doesn't sound good to you simply because the top cab sounds good to you -- in which case a matched pair of those might sound better?

3. Are you judging how good it sounds to you when standing in front of it, or have you tested how it sounds to the audience all around the room? What sounds good on stage isn't necessarily what sounds good in the room (or different parts of the room).

My answer to this is that I have absolutely tested to all three of your questions, in more detail than I care to actually. Everything gets designed in the math domain, the entire family gets modeled, then testing is done to verify the math model (especially important in mixed driver families because sometimes the math model might not agree with the physical model in a way important to this application). There are SPL tests, response tests, polar tests, uniformity tests and distortion tests.

I wouldn't place my reputation on the line without being able to back my position up with real world, verifiable results over a wide range of players (including many TB players). The Subway line is not the only speaker line that I have designed with this concept in mind. There was the Shuttles, Uber, NeoX models as well. ALL of them conform to the family approach.

 

[BassmanPaul]

I’m talking about picking any old 2x10 box and mating it to some arbitrary 15 cabinet. It can work but takes more effort. A properly designed system is a different kettle o’ fish.

 

[agedhorse]

I’m talking about picking any old 2x10 box and mating it to some arbitrary 15 cabinet. It can work but takes more effort. A properly designed system is a different kettle o’ fish.

Right, so why don't folks recognize this rather than saying "ALL" ?

 

[BadExample]

I’m talking about picking any old 2x10 box and mating it to some arbitrary 15 cabinet. It can work but takes more effort. A properly designed system is a different kettle o’ fish.

With all sort of respect for my friend, my BFF, Sir Paul, Knight of the round fish kettle, I stand by my earlier comment, then when you play in a bed room, phase is all over the place. I don't think it matters if there's only one cab, the funny phase stuff happens. You might even have more chance of filling in some blanks with some dissimilar cabs (although two cabs are probably not enough for that).

 

[BadExample]

I said play in the bedroom hehehehe

 

[ThisBass]

I think one big confusion that comes along with mixing discussion derives from marketing department goals as well as endorsers aim to earn money. Whenever any marketing department advertises the mixing of 15s with 10s or any endorser is seen with a mixing rig then there is discussion on TB that the endorser might be payed money to play mixed stuff. The marketing department goals seem to be pretty obvious just to make best profit.
TB is full of this discussions. I think we do pretty much disservice science every time when we try to make endorsers as well as marketing departments responsible for the existing of mixed rigs within a cab family.

IMO/IME science wise it makes absolutely no sense just to frequently assume (discuss) they should have known way better because of "well known" issues coming along with mixing stuff.

 

[agedhorse]

I think one big confusion that comes along with mixing discussion derives from marketing department goals as well as endorsers aim to earn money. Whenever any marketing department advertises the mixing of 15s with 10s or any endorser is seen with a mixing rig then there is discussion at TB that the endorser might be payed money to play mixed stuff. The marketing department goals seem to be pretty obvious just to make best profit.
TB is full of this discussions. I think we do pretty much disservice science every time when we try to make endorsers as well as marketing departments responsible for the existing of mixed rigs within a cab family.

IMO/IME science wise it makes absolutely no sense just to frequently assume (discuss) they should have known way better because of "well known" issues coming along with mixing stuff.

Except when the designs themselves support doing so in verifiable, science and measurement based ways.