Mixing cab question

[lfmn16]

Occasionally someone says it but you're right. It isn't that it can't work, it's just that you get more complexities and thus more opportunities to not reach "what I want". Complex absolutely can work but simple is always more practical!

+1

Most of us can't afford to risk money trying different things out. Also, just my opinion of course, but I think most people want to mix cabinets because they' bought the marketing BS, 10" speakers for punchy mids and 15" speakers for sweet, sweet bass.

 

[David Jayne]

If you want to stack a 410 and a 210, you're better off designing the 410 for 8 ohms, and the 210 for 16. Easy to do with 8 ohm drivers - the 410 gets wired as a series/parallel circuit, and the 210 gets wired as two 8 ohm drivers in series..........................."

.

I did exactly this back in the day, with a Goliath and Goliath Jr. for a 5.3 ohm total load. Worked very well.

 

[Jim Carr]

A 4ohm 410 and an 8ohm 210 would be ideal except the total would be 2.7ohms

Is ideal, IMHO, if the two cabs (4 ohm 410 and 8 ohm 210) have the same drivers and cabinet geometry. I did this with an Epifani 4 ohm UL410 and 8 ohm UL210. Great modular 610 I powered with a Mesa M9 or a racked Crest Ca6.

 

[KevInDaBassment]

The impedance is fine. Just feels like there's a hard camp of "never mix" so I wanted to make sure safety wise it was ok.

Yes, and that can be found in several various topics on here too

If you already have the cabs, you can scratch one of my reasons for not doing cab mixing, which is "it's a lot of try/buy/return" hassle since things may sound ok or even great at low or bedroom volumes, but in a band mix live or at rehearsal sound like a hot mess. This can go for nearly anything, but it's a lot easier to ship back an effects pedal or return a bass that doesn't cut it compared to a bass cab.

To go from a positive bent, some people may be ideological in their convictions on mixing cabs, but a lot of people just want to genuinely help and prevent someone from dealing with a blown speaker or other issues...usually because we've been there before ourselves and don't want someone else to deal with the same headache. For me, I like to have as few things I need to fiddle with or be hypervigilant about at a gig or practice. Worrying about hearing one cab farting out and possibly being damaged under a much louder cab's volume is more than we necessarily need to deal with in a high-volume situation. It's less to worry about when it's two identical cabs, plus it will make your rig louder when they are matched.

Adding a 2nd identical will sometimes add more bass too, so if the low-end feels lacking that can often help. Your 2x10 would probably make a great light gig cab or for rehearsal, and then the 4x10 can be on the bench for when you really wanna bust some eardrums!

 

[Jim Carr]

I understand the reasoning behind matching speaker configs. How the power is dispersed evenly two two cabs, so if you have a 410 each speaker is getting even power while a 210 has the same amount going to only two speakers, thus pushing them harder than the 410...
...as long as you're not right on the line of [power] handling then the 210 shouldn't be wrecked unless I'm missing something?...

Mixed cabinets don't always agree concerning EQ. In fact, I have found that unless they have been designed to work together as some are, chances are they will be less than ideal.

In my long life as a bassist (started in 1963), I have occasionally found myself continuously fiddling with EQ and volume knobs, independent of gig location or ensemble. I now think that in most instances, it was because I was mixing cabinets from different manufacturers (Marshall + Kustom or SWR + Epifani) and even from a manufacturers different product lines (SWR pro + SWR workingman's).

My rule of thumb is that if it sounds good, it IS good.

However, if you use distortion, overdrive, or synth effects, they can mask the sound of speakers under stress, no matter what cabs you use.

 

[Brad Johnson]

not at all, if the power numbers show that you're way safe then you're likely way safe, unless you run with stupid volume and low end boosting.

this argument always gets mis-characterized as "mixing cabs will cause all the dishes in your house to break and also makes the baby jesus cry"

the actual argument is that mixed cabs may not be as good as equal size and quality matched cabs, that's it.

Or they might be as good or even better. That's the part of the discussion that usually gets short shrift.

The problem is all of the variables. The devil really is in the details.

Take efficiency. It can vary wildly but you wouldn't know it from most statements. People tend to focus on impedance and really get sidetracked with power rating, which can be all over the place... like many important specs.

For the OP's questions more details are needed. Which specific cabs? It matters.

 

[InhumanResource]

+1

Most of us can't afford to risk money trying different things out. Also, just my opinion of course, but I think most people want to mix cabinets because they' bought the marketing BS, 10" speakers for punchy mids and 15" speakers for sweet, sweet bass.

Yep, this too. I'm not into spending tons of money on experiments, so when I needed a big rig I just doubled up on my existing cabinet and everything was fixed. Went used so it was cheap and got exactly what I wanted.

 

[Rip Van Dan]

Hey guys.

I've been doing a lot of reading regarding mixing cabs.

I understand the reasoning behind matching speaker configs. how the power is dispersed evenly two two cabs, so if you have a 410 each speaker is getting even power while a 210 has the same amount going to only two speakers, thus pushing them harder than the 410.

What i cannot find (probably due to the common keywords in my search) is whether or not this is any problem or danger if the 210's power rating is more than enough for the power being given out from the head.

It seems to me that as long as you're not right on the line of handling then the 210 shouldn't be wrecked unless I'm missing something ?

If a 210 cabinet is say, 600w and the amp only pushes out 350w is ther ever really a danger of pushing it to damage?

If theres a direct link to a thread where this specific aspect is explained please link to it. I couldn't find it.

Thanks in advance

The only concern about using a cabinet that is rated for 600-watts and feeding a 350-watt head into it is how sensitive the cab is. That is, how many watts does it take to get loud. Some cabs handle a lot of watts because it takes a lot of watts to get it to even make sound. Remember that it takes twice as much power for every 3db increase in volume (SPL). However, most major brands that handle that many watts have decent sensitivity too.

Don't worry at all about causing damage by not feeding it enough watts. That's an old wives tale that you can do a search of here on TB (under-powering cabs) and read all about. Basically, if you have a 600-watt amp and never turn it over 9 o'clock (3 on a scale of 1 to 10), just how much power do you think you are feeding it?...probably not even close to 350-watts and that doesn't hurt it a bit.

Now lets move a bit beyond power ratings and get into how to damage your cab without exceeding it's power rating. You can do that by running your bass EQ way up. Running your bass EQ way up requires your speakers to move a LOT to generate those really low notes. While not exceeding the actual power rating, you have a great chance of exceeding their XMAX rating - Maximum Extension. If you are playing along and your cab starts making farting sounds you need to make a change NOW!

First thing you do is drop your Bass EQ back to flat or lower. If that doesn't stop it, then you have to drop the master on your amp or you will damage your speakers. If you wait until the end of the song to make the changes, you may very well have blown those speakers. First thing that happens is you will crease the speakers (congratulations you have just blown them - no longer suitable to use). Continue on and you will either tear the cones themselves (too much extension) or melt the voice coils (too much power). So that farting sound should be a huge alarm to you if you hear it. If you're playing with distortion already, you might not discern it's doing that until it's too late.

So outside of diming your Bass EQ on your amp, which has the potential to tear apart your speakers, you should have no problems using your 600-watt cab with your 350-watt amp.

 

[SactoBass]

Mixing cabs??? Not only is that illegal on Talkbass, but it's highly dangerous!!! If you do it, try to imagine all life as you know it stopping instantaneously and every molecule in your body exploding at the speed of light.

 

[iiipopes]

Mixing cabs??? Not only is that illegal on Talkbass, but it's highly dangerous!!! If you do it, try to imagine all life as you know it stopping instantaneously and every molecule in your body exploding at the speed of light.

Indeed. Just like Star Trek overloading causing a warp core breach. Imagine one cabinet being matter and the other cabinet being anti-matter. Within microseconds of throwing the mains on: instant annihilation.

 

[iiipopes]

Seriously, whatever the physical size of the speakers in each cabinet:

1) is the rated sensitivity of the cabinets the same or within 3dB of each other?
2) is the power handling rating of each cabinet similar to each other, and equal to or more than the rated power output of the amplifier?
3) is the amplifier head being run within its specs, so it doesn't clip?
4) is the combined rated impedance of both cabinets (usually in parallel, so, for example, [without all the math] two eight-ohm cabs hooked together are usually in parallel, resulting in a four-ohm load to the amplifier) as hooked to the head equal to or more than the minimum impedance rating of the amplifier head?

If the answer to all the above questions is "yes," rock on!

For example, I play a Carvin MB-12 combo amp. Occasionally I desire more low-end reinforcement, so I have a 1X15 ported cab with a same era of manufacture Carvin 15" installed. The 15" cab is rated at eight ohms at more than the rated power of the amplifier at a 4-ohm combined load. My owner's manual says specifically that I can use a Carvin 1X15 8-ohm as the external speaker. And yes, I stack the MB-12 on top of the 1X15 cab, and rock on.

 

[arbiterusa]

I have been told on this very site by many people that if you mix cabs you will die, probably from Ebola.

 

[SactoBass]

instant annihilation.

"That's what I'm afraid of."

 

[iiipopes]

And now for something completely different: for home electric guitar practice (the rare times I gig electric guitar instead of bass), I have a solid-state Vox Pathfinder 15R. Nice little amp after you clip the diodes to get rid of the raspy "bedroom metal" tone. The jack for the external speaker is either/or, to keep neophytes from blowing up the amp and to discourage warranty claims from abuse. Of course, I wanted to use both speakers together. I looked up the "white paper" on the technical specs of the output MOS-FET. It turns out this particular MOS-FET actually prefers a 4-ohm load for peak efficiency, putting out about 17 watts before clipping. So, I opened up the amp, soldered a jumper over the make/break trace on the place on the circuit board that the either/or jack was soldered to, and now have a true external speaker jack. The internal speaker is a Vox brand eight-inch, eight-ohm, rated at about 25 watts. My external speaker is an old Jensen "Vibranto" twelve-inch, eight-ohm, also rated at about 25 watts, resulting in a four-ohm combined load, just what the MOS-FET likes. The speakers seem to run at about the same volume for the same settings on the amp when run singly, indicating similar sensitivity. The result: a nice little mini-stack rig that does everything I want it to for the time being.

 

[JimChjones]

There's that old rule of thumb that if you are thrashing the amp its wise for the speaker rating to be double the nominal rated power of the amp. So logically I reckon it follows that if you have two cabinets with different power ratings the lower rated speaker should have the same nominal power handling as the amp, with appropriate adjustment if impedance isn't equal.

And so it seems to me it also follows, as described above, that if you are mixing cabs it should be for tone, not because you want extra volume, because its wise to have a rather bigger safety margin with odd cabs than identical ones.

But going back to the OP, yes, if you have an ample safety margin with the lower powered cab, then that should be fine.

 

[klokker]

I've used two different cabs before. But I powered them with separate amps and matched them that way. It was OK, but I'd never do it again.

You can mix if you want, but to me the possible benefits are far outweighed by the possible problems.

 

[LaklandLaksNADA]

I'm mixing for experimenting with tone. Definitely not volume at this moment.

Thanks for the insights all. Appreciate it.

 

[Downunderwonder]

I've been doing a lot of reading regarding mixing cabs

Can you point to a single serious post that says ''mixing cabs will kill your dog''? What you do see is mixers claiming that ''the mixing police'' are gonna show up any second and ruin the party.

If you are standing next to the stack the top cab is about 6dB more in your ear than the bottom cab.

If the bottom cab is less sensitive you can add that to the distance problem. That's why the 15's blow on the bottom of 410/115 stacks. It all still sounds like it has plenty of headroom until the 15 blows.

Any time you stack up cabs you get a better monitoring. Is it the best sound you could get? Nobody knows.

In my case of mixing cabs I tried biamping them and got better sound than the full range. Not enough to warrant all the extra gear carting.