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Mixing Cabinets and Phase Response.

Perhaps there is more to this "debate" than SCIENCE vs. IGNORANCE. Because if only science displaces ignorance, we may not end up with the best possible solution for each of our particular circumstances. Maybe there is real-world experience somewhere in between science and ignorance that can work in spite of, and without denying, the science supposedly against it. Maybe since compromises are always made, living with phase issues is one compromise that can work in our gigging life, because of some advantages that are achievable only in coexistence with some disadvantages. (Unless our only gigging is in audio analysis software.)

Right now in my rock cover band I'm using a 210 and 212 together, driven independently by a dual channel power amp. I can definitely hear phase canceling as I'm running one cab at volume and bring the other up. However, the facts that I can control each cab independently, and that they produce vastly different tones (yes, even though they are both full-range bass cabs, they produce different tones :eek:), give me a large range of possible tonal combinations from this "wrong" configuration which helps greatly when faced with all the variables that playing in different venues present; concrete floors, wood floors, boomy wooden stages, big rooms, small rooms, high ceilings, low ceilings, lots of people, few people... and any combination of these elements in varying proportions. By varying the balance between the 210, with its punchy thump, and the 212, with its warm deep bass, using the dual channel amp, I can get a nice sound in almost any room. I would not have this range of possible results with a single driver, a single cab, or a single cabinet-type configuration. It's like cooking with many ingredients, versus cooking with just a few. I use the different tones of the cabs and the independent control to balance the tone I need for the room (which I couldn't do by selecting the "perfect" rig using charts even if I did understand them) then I COOK! :D :bassist:

In church, I use a single-driver, single cab rig. I'm happy that in that room I have a solution that works without having to deal with phase issue compromises. But it's only because the room never changes and I don't need to constantly adjust for varying conditions.

As to scientific ignorance; I am thankful for all the knowledge and understanding that is being shared and employed to help design and construct better equipment that we use to play music. But I don't have the natural desire to delve into all that. I have other pursuits. Likewise, I'm sure most of us don't understand the science behind everything! (Or am I wrong?) I just think it's sad when I see attitudes that condescend on those who haven't, can't, or don't want to fully immerse themselves in this knowledge.

This is my subjective, imperfect real-world experience and method, and it is not disproven by a graph. Maybe sharing this will help someone else who is unsure, and who is intimidated by the wizards of charts, and is reading posts like "I'll never mix cabs again after seeing those graphs." Or maybe I'm all wet and my very existence can be disproven by scientific analysis. :p :D
 
Which phase problem is "better"?
No phase problem is better. Have all the woofers identical, stack them vertically. If your woofers don't have adequate midrange, add midrange drivers and a crossover. The fEarful DIY cab thread wouldn't have lasted as long as it has if paying attention to proven acoustical engineering concepts instead of ignoring them didn't give a better result. ;)
 
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So would it be better to have matching woofers in a 2+2 configuraion (410) than having two mismatched, vertically aligned, single speaker cabs (110+112 or 115+112)? Which phase problem is "better"?

This looks like a classic Talkbass speaker cabinet discussion.
i would add to bill's comment that the 410 isn't so much a phase problem as a mid/high dispersion problem. funnily enough, i have no problem living with weak dispersion. my main two rigs are an 810 and two 115's, both of which don't have great dispersion past 1k. but i hate phasing problems caused by mixing cabs.

so i vote the 410 is a "better" problem ;)
 
Every piece of gear in the chain, from the cables to the speakers, affects the phase of the signal. Speakers affect phase differently at every frequency. This chart shows the phase response of a 1x12:

2012sealed.jpg

I believe these plots are being misinterpreted. The "sawtooth" portion
of the phase response is due to the delay (0.4 mS); not the speaker.
Even an ideal speaker would exhibit such a pattern.

This delay exists when there is any distance between the listener and
the speaker. A 0.4 mS delay corresponds to about 5.4" at the speed
of sound.

The point of these graphs should be to emphasize the effects of having
multiple speakers with each at different distances from the listener.
Regardless of the speaker type (e.g. 10", 12", 15", etc.), they will all
exhibit similar sawtooths for similar distances (i.e. similar delays).
 
Having a wireless unit and walking all around the stage and out on front during soundcheck is quite revealing. It's even more revealing later in the evening during the performance. As you walk around some pretty weird things happen, like certain frequencies just disappearing altogether while others are so overwhelming your first response is to immediately make an adjustment to your rig or the PA board and taking a couple of steps in one direction or another solves the issue.

Charts are helpful, but hearing it with your own ears is quite enlightening. It's one of the reasons we try to keep our PA subs together on one side of the stage or the other (or in the middle together if possible) if we can.

Now if all you do is stand in front of your rig, it won't be a big deal to you, but it still will be to some of the 15 (or 1500) drunks in front of you. ;)
 
+1

Best thing anyone can do is get the hell out away from their rig when twisting knobs.

What sounds good to start with probably won't stay that way either. More or less bodies in the room makes a difference.

Our ears will naturally compress some of the sound as well after being exposed to volume after a while. They do that to protect themselves so even if nothing changes, it still won't sound the same 45 minutes from now as it does now. That's why it bothers me when soundguys keep twisting knobs all night, after a time you can't trust your own ears so quit fiddling with stuff then.
 
I believe these plots are being misinterpreted. The "sawtooth" portion
of the phase response is due to the delay (0.4 mS); not the speaker.
Even an ideal speaker would exhibit such a pattern.
.
True. So there's no confusion this shows a sealed 1x10 and sealed 1x12, both at 0.4ms. Where the sawtooth takes place is above 2kHz, which is moot. What counts is below 1khz, and most especially around 100Hz, where they are clearly different.

phase.jpg
 
I did a search and couldn't find an answer, so I thought I'd ask this here:

Are two separate identical cabs, each with one speaker, the same as one cab with two speakers? (Assuming same driver size and type and internal volumes.)

Ferinstance: I've got two Epi 1x12's that I stack vertically (AND about two feet off the floor..Thanks Bill F.! :D). Would a cabinet with the same internal volume as two Epi 1x12's give me the same "thing" as the two 1x12's? If that makes sense?? (And again, assuming the speakers and internal volume are the same.)
 
I know I'm late, but I thought I'd chime in with my philosophy. Sound is my life (I'm a audio engineer as well as a musician), so I've put a lot of thought into it.

What makes "good tone"? If there was one exact sound that was what people call "good tone", people would buy whatever that exact combination was for that tone and none of these forums would be necessary. My good tone philosophy is twofold: A)Every single person has a different idea of what their perfect tone is, much less what the perfect tone for a certain song would be and 2) Everything you do to change a sound is not inherently "good" or "bad", only DIFFERENT. Whether it makes the sound better or worse is 100% opinion.

I'm all for fidelity. I LIVE fidelity. But in application, being true to signal isn't always (and usually isn't) the best sound you can get.

Again, all my opinions. Chiming in is welcome.
 
What makes "good tone"? If there was one exact sound that was what people call "good tone", people would buy whatever that exact combination was for that tone and none of these forums would be necessary. My good tone philosophy is twofold: A)Every single person has a different idea of what their perfect tone is, much less what the perfect tone for a certain song would be and 2) Everything you do to change a sound is not inherently "good" or "bad", only DIFFERENT. Whether it makes the sound better or worse is 100% opinion.

I'm all for fidelity. I LIVE fidelity. But in application, being true to signal isn't always (and usually isn't) the best sound you can get.

Again, all my opinions. Chiming in is welcome.

Well put.

The folks that like to mix and match certain cabs are hearing "phase issues" that, to them, are a positive, not a negative.

I've done mixing/matching with...Well, with mixed results. (Pun intended.) And, I've combined two of the same cab (like stacking two 1x12's) and have had mixed results, too. (Ferinstance: My Epi 1x12's play well together. I had a Berg HT112/EX112 stack that, IMO, wasn't that great.) Of course, somebody else will have different results.

Never hurts to have knowledge about what's going on behind the scenes, though. So all the "science" behind the sound is great to know. At least all the science I can comprehend!!
 
I know I'm late, but I thought I'd chime in with my philosophy. Sound is my life (I'm a audio engineer as well as a musician), so I've put a lot of thought into it.

What makes "good tone"? If there was one exact sound that was what people call "good tone", people would buy whatever that exact combination was for that tone and none of these forums would be necessary. My good tone philosophy is twofold: A)Every single person has a different idea of what their perfect tone is, much less what the perfect tone for a certain song would be and 2) Everything you do to change a sound is not inherently "good" or "bad", only DIFFERENT. Whether it makes the sound better or worse is 100% opinion.

I'm all for fidelity. I LIVE fidelity. But in application, being true to signal isn't always (and usually isn't) the best sound you can get.

Again, all my opinions. Chiming in is welcome.
i completely agree. but for those who ARE looking for it, they will go a lot farther by reading up on high fidelity audio reproduction and learning how it's done than they will by throwing a 410 on top of a 115.
 
i completely agree. but for those who ARE looking for it, they will go a lot farther by reading up on high fidelity audio reproduction and learning how it's done than they will by throwing a 410 on top of a 115.

I completely agree. But it's much more better with the 115 on top. The driver orientation is more in harmony with the player's legs and upper body, resulting in a phase convergence of sine impedence that cannot be achieved using conventional theories of matched driver sizes in matching boxes. Please refer to the following chart for the proof:

GRAPH.gif


;)
 
and it does illustrate the problems with mixing full range driver sizes.

But

I'd like to see some tests in the "real world" we play in: big stages, small bar stages, distance from the stage, distance from the set up on stage, etc.

I have seen things work in live sound that should not work, at least, they don't behave the same way on paper, as they do in real time.
 
I completely agree. But it's much more better with the 115 on top. The driver orientation is more in harmony with the player's legs and upper body, resulting in a phase convergence of sine impedence that cannot be achieved using conventional theories of matched driver sizes in matching boxes. Please refer to the following chart for the proof:

GRAPH.gif


;)

Almost true, but the dividing line between the two cabinets should be about a foot higher, for obvious reasons: shake them stones.....
 
and it does illustrate the problems with mixing full range driver sizes.

But

I'd like to see some tests in the "real world" we play in: big stages, small bar stages, distance from the stage, distance from the set up on stage, etc.

I have seen things work in live sound that should not work, at least, they don't behave the same way on paper, as they do in real time.
it's been my experience that cabs work pretty much exactly like they do on paper. once you learn how the sound relates to what's talked about, you can actually hear it. my 810 is brighter in front of it and gets a lot darker off to the side. and you can hear phasing issues in mixed cab rigs. the only thing you can't predict is how the listener relates to it.
 
it's been my experience that cabs work pretty much exactly like they do on paper. once you learn how the sound relates to what's talked about, you can actually hear it. my 810 is brighter in front of it and gets a lot darker off to the side. and you can hear phasing issues in mixed cab rigs. the only thing you can't predict is how the listener relates to it.

+1. Cabs will sounds exactly as they look on paper, IF what is on paper is 100% accurate with full disclosure. That seldom, if ever happens with commercial cab and their published specs.

And yes, once you understand what is on paper, translating that into expectations is quite easy.

What sounds "good" to each of us though is still very subjective.
 

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