yeah, i should have added that. the specs actually have to be accurate for them to be meaningful.
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Mixing Cabinets and Phase Response.
- Thread starter IvanMike
- Start date
Honestly, as a player and not an engineer, I've found that using my ears is almost 100% accurate when pairing cabs. Though for the last couple of years, I've preferred single cabs with multiple speakers over pairing 2 smaller cabs. The science doesn't lie, if it's presented with honesty and integrity, but your ears won't let you down either.
- Dec 18, 2000
- 13,201
- 340
- Disclosures
- greenboy designs: fEARful, bassic, dually, crazy88 etc
A lot of the benefits are not about what you can make sound good near your enclosure on stage. They are about better more predictable and consistent stage and venue mixes. This is especially relevant when PA support (including monitors) is not optimal.
I think bass players have trouble with this concept but good near-field response is just the tip of the iceberg. But spectral balance with increased coverage has long been a big principle to people who are interested in filling a room with less variance, and when dealing with multiple venues where acoustics are decidedly different.
Do you mean the paper the manufacturer's specs are written on or the largely non-existent plots for most cabs?
Just curious.
As to scientific ignorance; I am thankful for all the knowledge and understanding that is being shared and employed to help design and construct better equipment that we use to play music. But I don't have the natural desire to delve into all that. I have other pursuits. Likewise, I'm sure most of us don't understand the science behind everything! (Or am I wrong?) I just think it's sad when I see attitudes that condescend on those who haven't, can't, or don't want to fully immerse themselves in this knowledge.
This is my subjective, imperfect real-world experience and method, and it is not disproven by a graph. Maybe sharing this will help someone else who is unsure, and who is intimidated by the wizards of charts, and is reading posts like "I'll never mix cabs again after seeing those graphs." Or maybe I'm all wet and my very existence can be disproven by scientific analysis.
This. The vast majority of bassists have no paper to truly rely on. And even if they did, it still wouldn't be enough to predict what will please them in a live application. Way too many variables... the biggest of which is probably what the bassist wants to hear?
What if there's no PA? What if the amplification is for monitoring purposes only? And is there only one top of monitoring task? What if the bassist doesn't want a flat sound? What if you use it in a different venue. And so on.
Nothing wrong with paper, you'd just need a hell of a lot of it to truly deal with real life.
ok, so i can't tell everything by specs and specs alone. sue me. but i can tell a good amount, and i can at least tell what i probably won't like by specs and how it's constructed. and i have enough cabs that i like to where i really don't need anymore and it's not all that important to me if i miss out on something.
I'm in an enviable position in that I always play through the band owned PA system at EVERY gig and I have a wireless.
I designed my bass cabs specifically to be in tune with the other band member's sound as well as the PA. It's paramount that it not only sound good to me in front of my rig, but also off to the side of it, onstage as well as off. But it also has to blend well with our PA. And it isn't just for my personal benefit either.
It needs to cut through, but not overwhelm anyone else. This whole "what looks good on paper" is VERY important to me in this regard because without some specs to rely on, building my cabs to suit my needs would be an even bigger crapshoot.
But since I have some specs to rely on, I know I can confidently play, hear myself and everyone else without getting into any volume wars onstage. And all the while it sounds good onstage, it also blends in well with the PA too.
Now whether anyone else likes the sound of my bass is a different matter entirely. Yes, by all means trust your ears, but your ears aren't the only pair hearing your bass. Specs are meaningful, but it is more in the application of those specs than just the data alone. If one doesn't care about specs, that's cool too because obviously one isn't applying them to anything.
I designed my bass cabs specifically to be in tune with the other band member's sound as well as the PA. It's paramount that it not only sound good to me in front of my rig, but also off to the side of it, onstage as well as off. But it also has to blend well with our PA. And it isn't just for my personal benefit either.
It needs to cut through, but not overwhelm anyone else. This whole "what looks good on paper" is VERY important to me in this regard because without some specs to rely on, building my cabs to suit my needs would be an even bigger crapshoot.
But since I have some specs to rely on, I know I can confidently play, hear myself and everyone else without getting into any volume wars onstage. And all the while it sounds good onstage, it also blends in well with the PA too.
Now whether anyone else likes the sound of my bass is a different matter entirely. Yes, by all means trust your ears, but your ears aren't the only pair hearing your bass. Specs are meaningful, but it is more in the application of those specs than just the data alone. If one doesn't care about specs, that's cool too because obviously one isn't applying them to anything.
You can't tell much of anything sonically with most specs given on most cabs. There's nothing new about that. It's just funny that people keep talking like that's not the reality of the situation.
you absolutely can if you have experience listening and trying to compare what the specs tell with what your ear tells you. of course, once again, provided they're accurate. for example, i knew i wouldn't like the ampeg svt 410hlf based on specs alone, and sure enough, i didn't like it when i finally had the chance to try it onstage. why is that such a problem for you? is it my responsibility to find the one cab out there with such deep low end that might prove to be the exception? is it my responsibility to try every single cab out there before i decide i don't want anything to do with mixed driver sizes unless properly crossed over and designed for efficiency? i'd say no.
It is precisely because of the lack of accurate and meaningful specs from most manufacturers that I only play through cabs I build myself. I have very specific needs and most commercial cabs (the truly mass produced) just plain suck for me. I would bet my life that if there were truthful specs published on them, I could tell from the specs alone why they suck for me, without ever needing to try them out first or worse, buy them without trying.
That doesn't mean they all suck, but without publishing meaningful specs, since I can't try most of them out, I won't even bother with them when I can build my own based on specs that DO mean something to me.
Given accurate specs, I'd have a pretty good idea what a cab's strength and weaknesses are on specs alone, never having heard it. Even with limited specs (or exaggerated or less than full disclosure) I still have some idea what a cab can produce on basic specs alone. Given the speakers used, and the size of the cab and it's basic design, it isn't all that difficult to have an idea that it may or may not work for me. Personal taste aside, specs do tell the story. Some stories are more fantasy though.
Jimmy, you keep going round in the same circle over and over again
. "provided they're accurate". Exactly. Usually they AREN'T. Do you disagree?It's not a problem for me. I am curious... which published Ampeg spec told you you wouldn't like it?
No, it's not your "responsibility"... you don't have to be any more curious than you are. In the meantime others are not like you and don't mind checking out things that don't fit into nice tidy boxes. Is there anything wrong with that?
I agree, specs do tell a story. Given accurate specs I could make the same informed decisions that you speak of. Back inthe real world, I also agree that most published specs on commercially available cabs are sorely lacking or just plain misleading. Which is why I don't rely solely on them. For example, giving me an upper and lower range for frequency response (and nothing else, which is typical) will not help me decide between two cabs with the same general numbers. One could have a serious mid bump, the other a serious mid scoop... they'd still operate within the same overall range.
To anyone...
For grins, what commercial companies give accurate, meaningful specs for their cabs? Heck, some companies won't divulge how much their cabs even weigh.
well i'm not the one questioning anyone else's motives for how they buy gear. you are. i never busted your balls for buying by ear. go check out stuff if you want. i'm giving you my logic for why i do what i do.
and this is the spec i got from the hlf that told me i wouldn't like it:
Frequency Response (-3dB): 48Hz-18kHz
Usable Low Frequency (-10dB): 28Hz
now the way i hear that cab is pretty darn accurate to the specs as far as i'm concerned. it's got a huge rumbly low end response that i've never liked on my bass sound. so i knew right away that it wasn't for me. and sho nuff...
and this is the spec i got from the hlf that told me i wouldn't like it:
Frequency Response (-3dB): 48Hz-18kHz
Usable Low Frequency (-10dB): 28Hz
now the way i hear that cab is pretty darn accurate to the specs as far as i'm concerned. it's got a huge rumbly low end response that i've never liked on my bass sound. so i knew right away that it wasn't for me. and sho nuff...
If you consider this busting your balls, never mind, Jimmy. I thought it was a conversation about a subject.
Later.
oh, relax! it's fine...i'll be happy to discuss stuff with you...just don't be so accusatory, please. it's amps, not life or death. i know some people who buy amps strictly on looks, so at least i don't do that...ok, sometimes i do, but it's worked out very well for me soundwise so that's cool
oh, relax! just don't be so accusatory. it's amps, not life or death. i know some people who buy amps strictly on looks, so at least i don't do that...ok, sometimes i do, but it's worked out very well for me soundwise so that's cool
What are you smoking?
You tell me I'm busting your balls, then tell me to relax? I'm not the one complaining about some simple questions.
Seriously, if you feel the need to complain about how this is going, maybe you're the one who needs to relax. We agree, you can tell a lot from specs. We also agree that the specs need to be accurate. We also agree that more often than not, they come up short.
So the problem is?
