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Modes are driving me crazy

T

tedgilley

Dec 18, 2008
13
0
#1
I am fairly new to bass; converted from guitar. And like a lot of middling guitar players, I never learned music theory. But now I am studying hard, practicing daily, and trying to learn how to get around on the bass with some imagination - and out of the 1-3-5 rut.

Everything I read about modes seems to discuss everything about modes (in about 25 words) -except- how to use them and why. I am looking for a practical, step-by-step explication of what a mode is, how is it USED IN A SONG, and, preferably, without using the key of C as an example. (I know why C is used - no sharps or flats - but since we use sharps and flats most of the time, wouldn't other key examples be more useful?)

I'm sure this has probably come up before, and I beg pardon if this post is redundant. But if anyone can direct to me help on this subject, I'd sure appreciate it.

Thanks.

Ted
 
#2
tedgilley said:
I am fairly new to bass; converted from guitar. And like a lot of middling guitar players, I never learned music theory. But now I am studying hard, practicing daily, and trying to learn how to get around on the bass with some imagination - and out of the 1-3-5 rut.

Everything I read about modes seems to discuss everything about modes (in about 25 words) -except- how to use them and why. I am looking for a practical, step-by-step explication of what a mode is, how is it USED IN A SONG, and, preferably, without using the key of C as an example. (I know why C is used - no sharps or flats - but since we use sharps and flats most of the time, wouldn't other key examples be more useful?)

I'm sure this has probably come up before, and I beg pardon if this post is redundant. But if anyone can direct to me help on this subject, I'd sure appreciate it.

Thanks.

Ted
Click to expand...
C is used as an example because the intervals between notes of a given scale are the same in any key.......anything you learn in c should be practiced in all keys...

modes are just another tool,and not necessarily applicable to every piece of music.....lots of rock and blues is based on pentatonic scales.....im not sure there is a road map,but everything you learn will help you as you improve
 
#3
I use the modes in the context of being able to play a progression the entire length of the fretboard, in any key. You'll see some bassists, or even guitarists that play in boxes only, the modes will allow you to connect the dots between these octave boxes, and be able to play longer progressions.
 
#4
This post sums it all...
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=540879

janekbass said:
I really pay very little attention to modes when it comes to playing music. Music is a sound not a name of a sound. I only use modes to describe a certain tonality to a piano player or guitar player who is comping or something like that. Because there are specific sounds compositionally that I go for I do ask, for instance, for a certain kind of minor chord to be dorian as opposed to aeolian when describing the sound of a passage of music to another musician. But I'm certainly never thinking about a mode or scale when I'm playing a solo, a bass line, or comping for someone. I'm thinking about melody.

Modes are useful for analysis, education, and explanation, and I would highly recommend having a good working knowledge of them if you want to communicate certain things to musicians verbally. But when it comes to playing music, me melodic, and try not to think about what it actually is that you're playing.

Easy,

Janek
Click to expand...
 
#5
Don't use 'em unless you're playing modal music. If it's chordal, use the chords. Modes have a place, but that place is NOT the way it's generally taught. If you're going to have to come up with a bass line for a progression that goes Dmin to G7 to C, and someone tells you to use D dorian, then G mixolydian, then C Ionian, move away from them.

Why? Because those three chords define the key of C, and thinking of them as three separate entities with their own scales totally defeats the purpose of them being in the same key.

So, first, instead of learning all the modes at the beginning, learn this...

A. What is the diatonic major scale? Know what its whole-step and half-step pattern is, be able to figure it out in any key (using the correct enharmonics!), be able to play it on one string in any key, and be able to hear the note in your head before you play it.

B. Learn basic chord formulae. Know that a major chord is 1 3 5, a minor is 1 b3 5, a 7th is 1 3 5 b7, a minor 7 is 1 b3 5 b7, a major 7 is 1 3 5 7, etc. You don't need to go beyond the 7th chords to 9th, 11ths, etc. But understand four note chords, what it means when someone says "minor 7b5", etc.)

C. Learn the harmonized major scale.

D. That helps you learn the chords in the scale, so you know what folks mean when they say "ii V I" or "I IV V".

E. Then when you start learning modes, learn them in one key. Don't learn that C Ionian is the same notes as D Dorian. Instead, it's vital to learn what it is that makes C Ionian different from C Dorian. And more importantly what makes C Dorian different from C Aeolian. Why that? Because at some point you're going to be told that you use Dorian over minor chords, but you also use Aeolian over minor chords. But they ain't interchangeable. And if you know your chords, and you know the harmonized scale, you'll SEE for yourself exactly why A Aeolian is the right choice for Amin7 sometimes and sometimes it's better to use A Dorian.

THAT'S how you use modes and scales in general. It's not a formula, it's process of learning how music works.

jte
 
#6
I use modes from time to time in chordal music but really it's just as different options for passing tones... I don't really think about it much when playing, just when studying. now how I DO use then when playing is just to organize my options for approach in my head. I know the way a certain approach will sound in a blues, as well as another approach. I can mix the two, add a third, start with one and phase the other out, stick to one this time (maybe on a shorter solo). but really it's more a of a study tool to help people realize different things about their playing.

It's deffinately used more n jazz and classical music than rock, but one example I can see of modes being used in rock is when you have a destinct key center like in La Bamba, you will probably stick to the Major scale of whatever key you're in (usually C for this tune) when putting passing tones and whatnot in a bassline under a guitar solo or anytime you variate from the main riff. this helps the music keep it's easy flowing and super consonant sound that wont mess with people's ears. In this example you should still follow the chords and the soloist might be playing a blues scale, but being a bass player in charge of defining the harmony keeping everything grounded will make sure the crowd keeps dancing...


same can be said for Brown Eyed Girl, Ring of Fire, and countless other tunes
 
#7
My band tries to be a little Dream Theaterish in some ways and I definitely think Myung uses the modes a lot especially when tapping. One of their CD's, I think it's Six degrees of inner turbulence, the key signature of all the songs are in perfect modal order and the last song ends in the same key the first song starts in.

That's the modes right there, when you've completed every note in the progression you end where it starts but an octave higher.
 
#10
JTE said:
Don't use 'em unless you're playing modal music. If it's chordal, use the chords. Modes have a place, but that place is NOT the way it's generally taught. If you're going to have to come up with a bass line for a progression that goes Dmin to G7 to C, and someone tells you to use D dorian, then G mixolydian, then C Ionian, move away from them.

Why? Because those three chords define the key of C, and thinking of them as three separate entities with their own scales totally defeats the purpose of them being in the same key.

So, first, instead of learning all the modes at the beginning, learn this...

A. What is the diatonic major scale? Know what its whole-step and half-step pattern is, be able to figure it out in any key (using the correct enharmonics!), be able to play it on one string in any key, and be able to hear the note in your head before you play it.

B. Learn basic chord formulae. Know that a major chord is 1 3 5, a minor is 1 b3 5, a 7th is 1 3 5 b7, a minor 7 is 1 b3 5 b7, a major 7 is 1 3 5 7, etc. You don't need to go beyond the 7th chords to 9th, 11ths, etc. But understand four note chords, what it means when someone says "minor 7b5", etc.)

C. Learn the harmonized major scale.

D. That helps you learn the chords in the scale, so you know what folks mean when they say "ii V I" or "I IV V".

E. Then when you start learning modes, learn them in one key. Don't learn that C Ionian is the same notes as D Dorian. Instead, it's vital to learn what it is that makes C Ionian different from C Dorian. And more importantly what makes C Dorian different from C Aeolian. Why that? Because at some point you're going to be told that you use Dorian over minor chords, but you also use Aeolian over minor chords. But they ain't interchangeable. And if you know your chords, and you know the harmonized scale, you'll SEE for yourself exactly why A Aeolian is the right choice for Amin7 sometimes and sometimes it's better to use A Dorian.

THAT'S how you use modes and scales in general. It's not a formula, it's process of learning how music works.

jte
Click to expand...

YOU ARE MY NEW HERO!!!! :hyper: I've been harping about this for a long time and I was just ignored. What you say is TRUE and that is how bass should be taught! I hope everyone thinking about learning how to play bass reads your post and commits to learning the way you recommend.
;)
 
#13
And more importantly what makes C Dorian different from C Aeolian. Why that? Because at some point you're going to be told that you use Dorian over minor chords, but you also use Aeolian over minor chords. But they ain't interchangeable. And if you know your chords, and you know the harmonized scale, you'll SEE for yourself exactly why A Aeolian is the right choice for Amin7 sometimes and sometimes it's better to use A Dorian.


jte[/QUOTE]

Could you elaborate a little more on this please? I really need a "lightbulb moment" on what to use with minor chords, flat 6, or natural 6......................:help:
 
#14
Zigmundfloyd said:
And more importantly what makes C Dorian different from C Aeolian. Why that? Because at some point you're going to be told that you use Dorian over minor chords, but you also use Aeolian over minor chords. But they ain't interchangeable. And if you know your chords, and you know the harmonized scale, you'll SEE for yourself exactly why A Aeolian is the right choice for Amin7 sometimes and sometimes it's better to use A Dorian.


jte
Click to expand...

Could you elaborate a little more on this please? I really need a "lightbulb moment" on what to use with minor chords, flat 6, or natural 6......................:help:[/QUOTE]

i personally think it's a matter of taste for me personally..
if i'm walking a bassline or groovin' a bassline if i'm playing an ascending line i'll use natural 6th to the flat 7th. or if i'm playing a descending line i'll play b6th to natural 5th. usually. but not always.
 
#15
The difference between Dorian and Aeolian is pretty big in my opinion. Dorian sounds funky/bluesy, pretty much any funk song is based around it. The minor sixth in Aeolian on the other hand sounds sad and dark which is why it pops up in lots of riffs of metal songs. If I were to put together a bass line for an upbeat pop/rock song, I probably wouldn't use the minor sixth because the dark sound it creates really stands out. If the song was supposed to sound downbeat and depressing, I might.
 
#16
As JTE says think Chordal as that will apply to your ear and i agree, but i say think model and that will apply to your fingers. As it is application that you are looking for, that's just your brain and how well you understand what you know. The human brain likes to find patterns and order and will remember patterns and order over information. Its not quantity of information, but quality of information. I would suggest you use modes and all that they involve as exercises for your fingers dexterity and stamina. You can listen to the intervals and gain knowledge of them as you practice. The chordal approach will teach you the way the notes of the modes interact with each other in a positive and negitive way. Ultimately that's what sets us apart, the way we think and apply, if we all applied in the same way there would be.......well you work it out.
 
#17
My point about Aeolian and Dorian is the huge load of crap that floats on the 'net saying "use X mode for minor chords" without any regard for the chord's function. Go back and dig into what I posted about harmonized scales. Figure out for yourself how Amin7 is different in the key of C versus in the key of G. Come back with your homework.

And to "learn" a mode or scale by being able to finger it is pointless. It's what leads to music as an athletic endeavor instead of as music. To "know" a scale in my thinking means.

A. You know how it's constructed. The intervals between each note.
B. You know what it sounds like.
C. You can figure out the notes on paper and/or in your head in any key without reference to your bass- and you get the correct enharmonics (i.e. you know why it's F# in the key of G instead of calling it Gb).
D. You can execute playing it over two octaves in any key, ascending and descending.

Most people get hung up on D and think they know something.

John
 
#19
Totally love JTE's posts.

I recorded a bunch of jam tracks that are based around being able to learn all chords/scales with modes - I will start putting them up on my site today.

But I totally agree with JTE about thinking of the chords and chords tones more than anything else. There is nothing worse than HEARING someone playing a scale!

Personally I liked modes for 1 reason (point E from JTE) - lining them up and comparing the differences.

I like that because it makes me understand the Major and minor pentatonic and blues scales, why the notes are there and why they 'work' well.

After that (for my money) - I'll take the pentatonic scale, the 4 chord tones from the 7th chord of whatever chord I'm on and think of that as my scale and everything else I'm missing is a passing note.

Especially on bass.

Especially on bass.

Especially on the bass.

Cheers,
Nick.
 

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