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Modes for Major Scale

#2
Jamplay seems to do it right. Learning them by trying to make sense of them all being the same scale starting on different notes clouds the critical idea that each mode has a distinct SOUND and construction.

Before you mess with playing any modes, learn the construction. This means you know that Ionian is W W H W W W H, and that Dorian is W H W W W H W, etc. Then learn how they sound. Then and only then work out playing them.

But first, do a search of the theory forum on modes and read all the protracted discussions so we don't have to regurgitate the monthly discussion. :)

John
 
#3
So I think of the modes based off the major scale. So C major (C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C) would have seven modes C Ionian (the major scale), D Dorian (D, E, F, G, A, B, C, D), E Phrygian (E, F, G, A, B, C, D, E), F Lydian (F, G, A, B, C, D, E, F), G Mixolydian (G, A, B, C, D, E, F, G), A Aeolian or Natural minor (A, B, C, D, E, F, G, A), and B Locrian (B, C, D, E, F, G, A, B). This is the same for all keys G major would be G Ionian, A Dorian, B Phrygian, C Lydian, D Mixolydian, E Aeolian, F# Locrian and so on throughout all twelve major scales. I think your confusion is coming from a poor explanation.

From what I gather from your post they are showing all the different modes starting from C. So think of all the major scales with a C natural in them. Of course you have C major with C being the root which make the Ionian mode. Then you have G major with C being the fourth scale degree, which makes the Lydian mode. Then you have F major with C being the fifth scale degree, which makes the Mixolydian mode. B flat major with C being the second scale degree which makes the C Dorian mode. E flat major with C as the sixth scale degree creating the C Aeolian or Natural Minor mode/scale. D flat major with C as the seventh scale degree creating the C Locrian mode.

It can be confusing and daunting. I personally learned modes by thinking of the major scale and starting it on different notes. So C major scale starting on D for one octave, then E etc, etc.

I hope this isn't making matters worse for you. If I was unclear feel free to let me know.
 
#4
Learning the modes in a parallel method (C Ionian, C dorian, C, phrygian, etc) is by far a better way to get a handle on modes. You'll learn the construction and understand the differences between them. Go that way, and don't look back.
 
#5
yetchtoo said:
Boy, I am confused! On JamPlay, with the different modes or degrees for, say the C Major scale, always start on C and uses different intervals. On some other sites, the different modes begin with the next note in the scale i.e., C, D, E, etc.
Can someone set me straight on this?
Thanks, Mike
Click to expand...

There is no RIGHT or WRONG way to learn the Modes. Learning them from the same major scale is the perfect way to understand where they come from AND what their harmonic function is in a tonality ( I-II-III-IV-V-VI-VII ).

Learning them from the same root will make them more different in their construction and how they sound but the harmonic function in relationship with a major key will be a bit more difficult to grasp.

Learn both ways for a deeper understanding of this very useful concept for us, bassists ;)
 
#6
Pacman said:
Learning the modes in a parallel method (C Ionian, C dorian, C, phrygian, etc) is by far a better way to get a handle on modes. You'll learn the construction and understand the differences between them. Go that way, and don't look back.
Click to expand...

+1 here

i strongly agree because i learned them when i was younger the other way, and got quite confused early on.
 
#7
Originally Posted by Pacman -----Learning the modes in a parallel method (C Ionian, C dorian, C, phrygian, etc) is by far a better way to get a handle on modes. You'll learn the construction and understand the differences between them. Go that way, and don't look back.
Click to expand...
There are two ways of looking at modes. Relative modes where the key changes and the notes stay the same and then Parallel modes where the key stays the same and the notes change. Both get to the same sound, but, go down two different roads getting to that sound. Internet answers to your questions are normally correct, however, the person answering the question may be speaking in Relative or Parallel and most do not tell you which one. So you get confused.

Relative is easier to teach and perhaps easier to understand. Relative is where you are taught that the C scale C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C and is the same as the Ionian mode and then the C scale starting on D - D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D is the Dorian mode, etc

Parallel modes keep the same key and the notes change. C Ionian would be C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C. I think in scale degrees and major scale patterns so to me the C Parallel mode would be R-2-3-4-5-6-7-8. For example:

Ionian = R-2-3-4-5-6-7-8 - Major mode and home base for all major modes.
Lydian = R-2-3-#4-5-6-7-8 - Major mode one note different.
Mixolydian = R-2-3-4-5-6-b7-8 - major mode one note different.

Aeolian = R-2-b3-4-5-b6-b7-8 - Minor mode and home base for all minor modes.
Dorian = R-2-b3-4-5-6-b7-8 - Minor mode and one note different.
Phrygian = R-b2-b3-4-5-b6-b7-8 - Minor mode and one note different.
Locrian = R-b2-b3-4-b5-b6-b7-8 - Minor and Diminished and Locrian has two notes different.

Different than what? Different from the major or minor home bass. Home base for major modes is the Major scale and home base for minor modes is Natural Minor scale.

Now the confusing part. We may think of C Dorian in Parallel modes as being R-2-b3-4-5-6-b7-8 or D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D in Relative modes. The D major scale is D-E-F#-G-A-B-C#-D not D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D, but, drum roll ---- So C Dorian flats the 3rd and 7th degrees. Same thing.

You are taught Relative modes because they are easy to teach. I, like Pacman, find parallel much easier to use in a molidic situation.

If I want the Dorian sound (attractive minor sound) I use the natural minor scale and sharp the b6 back to a natural 6. If I want the Lydian sound I use the major scale and sharp the 4 to get the Lydian sound. Mixolydian flat the 7. Phrygian - OK it's minor so I revert to the natural minor scale and flat the 2.

Scott Devine's video on Modes explains this very well.

Why use a mode? For it's sound. Now the next thing you must take into account. If you want the modal sound to sustain you need to be playing this mode over a modal vamp not a normal V-I chord progression. Why? A V-I chord progression always calls your attention to the V-I tonal center. All your modal melody will be drowned out with the return to the tonal center of the chord progression, namely the I tonic chord's sound. When using modes use a modal vamp. Notice Scott Devine's video uses the droning E string as his modal vamp to play his modes over. Got to have the modal signature note droning in the background for the modal sound to sustain. Modal signature note??? The note that is different from the parent major or minor scale. Another long story best started here http://www.riddleworks.com/modalharm3.html.

Good luck.
 
#9
The first way I learned them was starting on C on the piano. All the professor was trying to illustrate is how they sound. Conveniently, no black keys were needed to see that C-C on the white keys is Ionian, D-D on the white keys is Dorian, E-E is Phrygian, etc. They're so easy to see that way, too. To this day when I need to remember what altered intervals a mode contains I can always picture the white keys and go from there.
 
#10
Some websites use every mode starting on C because in the key of C major, there are 0 accidentals. Relating all modes with C as the root makes it easy to see which scale degrees (root, second, third, etc.) are altered.

The ones using C for Ionian (major) and D for Dorian are focusing more on the understanding of how each mode is related to the major scale.

If you want to learn the modes, I would suggest just thinking of them as their own tonality and scale, rather than relating them to the major scale.

Most beginning musicians learn both the major and minor scale without knowing that they are related.
Once you understand how each mode sounds, then get into understanding how they are built. Modes are just scales.

Example: if you are in the key of C major, and a D minor chord appears (ii chord), playing the D Dorian mode over this chord would sound the same as playing a C major scale because they contain the same notes.
 
#13
Russell L said:
The first way I learned them was starting on C on the piano. All the professor was trying to illustrate is how they sound. Conveniently, no black keys were needed to see that C-C on the white keys is Ionian, D-D on the white keys is Dorian, E-E is Phrygian, etc. They're so easy to see that way, too. To this day when I need to remember what altered intervals a mode contains I can always picture the white keys and go from there.
Click to expand...

^ Revelation here for me.
 
#14
So, I have a song (Not to Us, by Chris Tomlin) that I've determined is in the key of B, and is Dorian, since the song contains B (root), a Natural D (Flat 3rd), and a Natural A (a flat 7th) notes in the song. Does this mean the song is in B Dorian, or A Dorian? (since B is the 2nd degree of A)? Also, does this mean that if I want to improv/solo during an instrumental in this song, I can play the Dorian scale starting on B?
 
#15
StricklandLuke said:
So, I have a song (Not to Us, by Chris Tomlin) that I've determined is in the key of B, and is Dorian, since the song contains B (root), a Natural D (Flat 3rd), and a Natural A (a flat 7th) notes in the song. Does this mean the song is in B Dorian, or A Dorian? (since B is the 2nd degree of A)? Also, does this mean that if I want to improv/solo during an instrumental in this song, I can play the Dorian scale starting on B?
Click to expand...

This song might be more in B minor Eolian. The difference between Eolian and Dorian is the 6th note of the scale G or G#. If there is a G Major or if the note G sounds good to you while playing it, it is probably in B minor Eolian relative minor of D Major.
 
#20
My encounter with modes was brief, after seven years of musical education, orchestral training, in the final weeks of my last year my main teacher told us, "Modes.....everything you know and have learned can be interpreted in seven different ways, have fun exploring them."
 

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