Double Bass More mass = better sound?

[drurb]

I know what you mean. I saw the topic as an opportunity to chat about and address a trend that I and other luthiers have been dealing with in this part of the US, as well as educating musicians about their instruments. All in all there is no one right way to go about set up and there is more than one way of doing things. I will share what works for me and what has made my clients happy.

...and thank you for doing that!

 

[Cody Sisk]

Fishing weights and chewing gum work great to experiment with adding mass to a tailpiece. Add weight to determine if it is having a positive or negative effect on the sound. If positive, it'll need a heavier tailpiece. However, if you don't have a plethora of tailpieces at different weights lying around, (as most of us don't) try experimenting with the length of the tail wire. Sometimes the same effect as adding more mass can be mimicked that way..

Most of the time I find that less mass of the tailpiece has a positive effect on the sound to most ears. This is why I'm a big fan of replacing a big heavy ebony tailpiece with a Wittner composite tailpiece. Though I've seen a couple instruments that this switch just trashed the sound. It just depends on the bass's personality..

I haven't really tried it yet, but some really advocate using a wooden or carbon fiber endpin. That might also reduce mass and free up vibrations. That reminds me that I sold a 10mm carbon fiber rod to a customer recently and need to ask him if it made a positive difference for his bass..

 

[basswraith]

Good comments Basswrath. Would you care to get a little specific about what you are taking about in this phrase. I saw the topic as an opportunity to chat about and address a trend that I and other luthiers have been dealing with in this part of the US?
I don't live in that part of the country but maybe could learn from others mistakes.

I would love to type in some specific names of people who work on basses here and perhaps some shops. But you could understand why I will leave them out for now. I see here in Boston and NY, an approach
to set up that has me and other luthiers scratching our heads saying what the...???. Its too heavy and kills the sound of the bass. Its always the same thing..a dull dead sound.
We undo it and the bass comes back to life and the player is happy.
Thats what I meant from that phrase.

 

[Paul Warburton]

I would love to type in some specific names of people who work on basses here and perhaps some shops. But you could understand why I will leave them out for now. I see here in Boston and NY, an approach
to set up that has me and other luthiers scratching our heads saying what the...???. Its too heavy and kills the sound of the bass. Its always the same thing..a dull dead sound.
We undo it and the bass comes back to life and the player is happy.
Thats what I meant from that phrase.

That first paragraph of yours, quite frankly, has me a bit confused....as does the fact that you choose to use that paticular font in some of your posts. Is there some deep thing going on that you're experimenting with here? Or to put it more simply, what's up with all that?

 

[Cody Sisk]

I would love to type in some specific names of people who work on basses here and perhaps some shops. But you could understand why I will leave them out for now. I see here in Boston and NY, an approach
to set up that has me and other luthiers scratching our heads saying what the...???. Its too heavy and kills the sound of the bass. Its always the same thing..a dull dead sound.
We undo it and the bass comes back to life and the player is happy.
Thats what I meant from that phrase.

Once again you surface with provocative banter that does nothing to help anyone here. You just see it as another opportunity to flaunt your ego and throw your competition under the bus assuming it's going to help your business.

But you could understand why I will leave them out for now.

The problem is that your passive-aggressive comments aren't specifically targeted. Perhaps you should quit beating around the bush and come out with it already. Let the accused have the opportunity to defend themselves..

 

[Eric Hochberg]

I would love to type in some specific names of people who work on basses here and perhaps some shops. But you could understand why I will leave them out for now. I see here in Boston and NY, an approach
to set up that has me and other luthiers scratching our heads saying what the...???. Its too heavy and kills the sound of the bass. Its always the same thing..a dull dead sound.
We undo it and the bass comes back to life and the player is happy.
Thats what I meant from that phrase.

Why not be more specific about the kind of work you are talking about and what you do to fix it? And +1 on the font thing...

 

[basswraith]

The tool bar gives us an option for font type so I choose the one I liked best. Thats all.

OK Texas...
"Once again you surface with provocative banter that does nothing to help anyone here. You just see it as another opportunity to flaunt your ego and throw your competition under the bus assuming it's going to help your business."

Once again? Which other posts do you include?

"Provocative Banter" is what makes writing interesting. We usually decide by the first sentence of a novel whether or not we want to continue the rest of the book.
I see you read the whole thing.


Where did I flaunt my ego?
I included
"All in all there is no one right way to go about set up and there is more than one way of doing things. I will share what works for me and what has made my clients happy."

Working with wood usually has a very humbling effect on the person working with it.



"I would love to type in some specific names of people who work on basses here and perhaps some shops. But you could understand why I will leave them out for now."

I wrote that because its a small bass world and things have a way of getting around. Thats why I choose not to get into who done it.


"You just see it as another opportunity to flaunt your ego and throw your competition under the bus assuming it's going to help your business."
Well I don't use TALKBASS do help my business. After all talkbass ..isn't that exactly what it is? Talk? Banter? I think there is more weight in the real time experience.

My goal as a repair person is to renew the love affair with the instrument in which players have a close relationship.
I use good work to help my business.

 

[Cody Sisk]

OK Texas...

Your condescending way of saying that makes me sound like I'm just some redneck from the south. Need I remind you that you studied in Texas? You hold yourself in such high esteem as being a former student of Jeff Bradetich. I knew Dr. Bradetich back when I was growing up in Denton. He's an outstanding musician, fantastic teacher, and a hell of a nice guy. He's also a fine example of how NOT to be a jackass. Evidently, when you were studying with him, you missed that concept..

"Once again you surface with provocative banter that does nothing to help anyone here. You just see it as another opportunity to flaunt your ego and throw your competition under the bus assuming it's going to help your business."

Once again? Which other posts do you include?

How about the one Paul W. resurfaced? When, without even looking at the subject matter, you decided to go on your white glue diatribe with the sole purpose of making me look like a jackass without any real substance to back it up. You got slapped for it by the rest of the community here, hence why you never resurfaced in that thread. Well, it's a two-way street bub. I felt the time was right to call you out.

"I would love to type in some specific names of people who work on basses here and perhaps some shops. But you could understand why I will leave them out for now."

I wrote that because its a small bass world and things have a way of getting around. Thats why I choose not to get into who done it.

Then how about leaving comments like that to yourself. I can think of one major competitor in your area and it seems obvious that's who you're targeting. Said person is also much more of a contributor here than you so I won't hesitate to come to their defense.

Where did I flaunt my ego?

"You just see it as another opportunity to flaunt your ego and throw your competition under the bus assuming it's going to help your business."[/I]
Well I don't use TALKBASS do help my business. After all talkbass ..isn't that exactly what it is? Talk? Banter? I think there is more weight in the real time experience.

I use good work to help my business.

Really? Did we forget to mention.. really? Oh and how about.. really?

Given your post history here, I find that statement amusingly false.

 

[arnoldschnitzer]

I know Basswraith and he is not an egomaniac. I think that he and DallasStrings would get along just fine in a face-to-face. You guys should try to lower the temperature a bit...

Now, I'd like to personally address something I believe Basswraith was alluding to. There is a "luthier" in the Boston area who sets up basses with heavy brass adjusters, ebony inserts in the bridge legs, and poorly-fitted soundposts. The methodology and result is controversial. This person is well-known as a musician, has a lot of students, and it would not be professional to "out" him by name. I think Basswraith is referring specifically to this man's work in regards to the mass/tone conversation.

Now perhaps this thread can return to topic. Here's a quote from a world renowned guitar-maker friend of mine: "The best weight for a stringed instrument is the lowest possible which allows it to stay intact".

Comments?

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Just a friendly reminder to all to keep the discussion within the rules. If there is a major disagreement brewing between two members, it can be taken to PM.

All registered users must address fellow members with the utmost respect at all times. If you do not agree with a fellow member, be courteous in your response. Thomas Jefferson said it best: "When I hear another express an opinion which is not mine, I say to myself, he has a right to his opinion, as I to mine".

Because of the limitations of text based communication, the expression of intent can be tricky. One of the most common triggers of rule violations is the misinterpretation of intent behind a post. Use smilies often, and remember, it never hurts to begin a response with "In my opinion"...

If you do not address everyone on the board with respect, be prepared to lose your membership.

As to the topic at hand, I think a lot depends on the sound that the player desires. For an orchestral player looking to blend, resonance is paramount. For a soloist, more focus might be desirable. For a jazz player competing with drums, tight and punchy is often useful. For amplified playing, too much resonance can be problematic. There are no hard and fast rules for every player.

 

[Eric Rene Roy]

Here's a quote from a world renowned guitar-maker friend of mine: "The best weight for a stringed instrument is the lowest possible which allows it to stay intact".

Comments?

An extreme quote I heard from a violinmaking friend was, "I can make it last forever, or I can make it sound good. You choose."

I believe there is grounds somewhere in the middle...or maybe tipped a bit more towards the sound side!

 

[Ken McKay]

I know Basswraith and he is not an egomaniac. I think that he and DallasStrings would get along just fine in a face-to-face. You guys should try to lower the temperature a bit...

Now, I'd like to personally address something I believe Basswraith was alluding to. There is a "luthier" in the Boston area who sets up basses with heavy brass adjusters, ebony inserts in the bridge legs, and poorly-fitted soundposts. The methodology and result is controversial. This person is well-known as a musician, has a lot of students, and it would not be professional to "out" him by name. I think Basswraith is referring specifically to this man's work in regards to the mass/tone conversation.

Now perhaps this thread can return to topic. Here's a quote from a world renowned guitar-maker friend of mine: "The best weight for a stringed instrument is the lowest possible which allows it to stay intact".

Comments?

Thanks Arnold, that is all I really wanted to know.

Michael seemed like a good guy when I met him in Kalamazoo. I am sure I would like Cody too.

Light is good...in some cases.

Scientifically there is a movement in the violin making community, that measures the "effective stiffness" of many Strad and del Gesu violin tops which are well known. Search for Joseph Curtain in Strad Magazine article called Tap Tones.

Jim Ham built an ultra light cello, not sure how it turned out though.

I try to keep all of my parts of the body light as possible in my new construction, the neck I keep in a normal range but not necessarily light and the fittings can vary according to how the body responds.

 

[arnoldschnitzer]

An extreme quote I heard from a violinmaking friend was, "I can make it last forever, or I can make it sound good. You choose."

I believe there is grounds somewhere in the middle...or maybe tipped a bit more towards the sound side!

Good stuff, Eric. I think that folks are unrealistic when they expect violin-family instruments to last forever. Guitars typically last a few decades. Thanks to the art of restoring, instruments are kept alive way beyond their probable life-span. I think a new bass should sound good from day one. I also think one can expect to have it repaired many times during its useful life. But that does not mean it should be built too light to withstand its own string tension.

 

[Cody Sisk]

Here's a quote from a world renowned guitar-maker friend of mine: "The best weight for a stringed instrument is the lowest possible which allows it to stay intact".

Comments?

A stonemason friend of mine has built a guitar neck out of marble and plans on building the body out of bloodwood with a regular ole sitka spruce top. He's scratching his head on how to bend the 1/4 inch thick bloodwood for the ribs and if he accomplishes this feat, it'll be interesting to hear the finished product. The extreme opposite might offer an interesting perspective. I'll report back when I see/hear this contraption..

 

[Eric Rene Roy]

Cody, I read an article once about someone in Europe who built a violin out of Alabaster.

 

[thejumpcat]

I've noticed that when I play with the mute (I use a rubber Tourte mute), though smaller, the sound immediately becomes more focused, and I even noticed that it is more responsive under the bow. Obviously, I don't want to play with the mute on all the time...

I wanted to practice in my apartment late one night a month ago, so I pulled out the mute. It didn't fit as well over my Shen's bridge as it used to on my Kay Swingmaster, but it did the job. I, like the OP, also noticed that the sound became more focused.

I tried it on a gig (jump blues) a few weeks ago and actually dug the sound. Gave me a nice thump. I'm going to try it again on Saturday's gig. If it sounds better, I'll mute it; if not, it's simple to remove.

 

[basswraith]

"Your condescending way of saying that makes me sound like I'm just some redneck from the south."

What about....? "Fishing weights and chewing gum work great to experiment with adding mass to a tailpiece."


"Need I remind you that you studied in Texas?"

Nope.

"You hold yourself in such high esteem as being a former student of JB. I knew JB back when I was growing up in Denton. He's an outstanding musician, fantastic teacher, and a hell of a nice guy. He's also a fine example of how NOT to be a jackass. Evidently, when you were studying with him, you missed that concept.."

Nope.. I got that too.
What you say about him is true , however that person has nothing to do with any of this.


"Then how about leaving comments like that to yourself. I can think of one major competitor in your area and it seems obvious that's who you're targeting. Said person is also much more of a contributor here than you so I won't hesitate to come to their defense. "

If you are referring to Upton or any one from that shop, I was not speaking about them. You are way off target.

I hope that answers your questions

 

[Cody Sisk]

"Your condescending way of saying that makes me sound like I'm just some redneck from the south."

What about....? "Fishing weights and chewing gum work great to experiment with adding mass to a tailpiece."

Took this method directly out of Chuck Traeger's book. You calling him a redneck too?

"Need I remind you that you studied in Texas?"

Nope.

Technicalities set aside, the fact is that you've spent time in Texas. That was the point I was driving home "Boston"..

"Then how about leaving comments like that to yourself. I can think of one major competitor in your area and it seems obvious that's who you're targeting. Said person is also much more of a contributor here than you so I won't hesitate to come to their defense. "

If you are referring to Upton or any one from that shop, I was not speaking about them. You are way off target.

I hope that answers your questions

It does, thank you. Now I'll reiterate, please leave those comments to yourself. I'm sure I'm not the only one who misinterpreted this.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Just a friendly reminder to all to keep the discussion within the rules. If there is a major disagreement brewing between two members, it can be taken to PM.

Apropos of nothing, my neck is extremely red, and I'm not the least bit embarrassed about this. Paul Determan (site creator, owner, head admin, head honcho, big cheese, El Tigro numero Uno, and Supreme Dictator for life) also currently resides in Texas.

Now, does more mass equal better sound, or not?

 

[anonymous02282011]

Now, does more mass equal better sound, or not?

Alright boys and girls, rednecks, whomps, witches and scallywags . . .

1.) I had the top of my bass thinned out years ago and the instrument went from being pretty good to great.

2.) My old bass teacher, who was crustier than a lot of you fine specimens believed that adding weight/mass reduces vibration, and this effects the sound negatively. He was a bit anal about it, but I believe he is correct.

So, along these lines I'd say that less mass leads to more resonance and . . . . dare I say . . . sounds better.