More theory: help me Understand this diagram!

[Groove Master]

I believe we agree.



Sure you can build a four note chord without a minor seventh. These are termed "Add" - Add2, Add6, Add9, Add6/9. These most likely were not used during the Baroque or Classical period. But the way the Professor is labeling, it suggests the modern Jazz/Pop period that we now live in. No one uses iim7, V7, etc. in a Jazz chart. Added note chords are alive and flourishing on today's music.



Not understanding this. Perhaps you are talking about, for instance, the iii chord (i.e. Eminor, from the example) and adding an interval of a sixth above the root - E to C, giving a chord spelling of E, G, B, C. The problem is that there are now to groups of intervals, E to B, AND G to C that are "fighting" to establish a Root. Being in the Key of C Major, I believe that the G to C will win out and more strongly imply that the Root Note is C. This also applies to the vi chord, the root is weakend in favor of the Added Six (F) and making the chord a IV7 in first inversion. I believe this is why the Professor left the added six to the iii (Em) and vi (Am).



But we've found examples of Added Note chords with NO Sevenths.



I think I know where you are heading.

I knew someone would enter this door.

When I mention 4parts chords I mean a stack a thirds, not a triad with a non-functional note like a 2nd or a 9th.
It is a pretty basic concept.

The other thing is there no such thing as a min min6 chord like your examble of the iii and vi degrees because even in root position it can't be used. If you cannot use it as a root position then it is not acceptable unless you love your music to be dissonant which doesn't appeal to the mass ;-)

 

[Stick_Player]

I knew someone would enter this door.

When I mention 4parts chords I mean a stack a thirds, not a triad with a non-functional note like a 2nd or a 9th.
It is a pretty basic concept.

I'm happy to enter through the door. The term "Added" clearly implies that the given chord is NOT built by only 'stacking' thirds. And, that there is NO minor seventh involved.

The other thing is there no such thing as a min min6 chord like your examble of the iii and vi degrees because even in root position it can't be used. If you cannot use it as a root position then it is not acceptable unless you love your music to be dissonant which doesn't appeal to the mass ;-)

I explained, very clearly, about that:

".... Perhaps you are talking about, for instance, the iii chord (i.e. E Minor, from the example) and adding an interval of a sixth above the root - E to C, giving a chord spelling of E, G, B, C. The problem is that there are now two groups of intervals, E to B, AND G to C that are "fighting" to establish a Root. Being in the Key of C Major, I believe that the G to C will win out and more strongly imply that the Root Note is C. This also applies to the vi chord, the (original) root (A) is weakened in favor of the Added Six (F) and making the chord a IVM7 in first inversion. I believe this is why the Professor left out the added six to the iii (Em) and vi (Am)."

The resulting chord of: E, G, B, C will become a first inversion IM7 - CM7/E.

The resulting chord of: A, C, E, F will become a first inversion IVM7 - FM7/A.

Both the Professor and myself recognized this many posts back.

There are plenty examples of these chord voicings.

 

[Groove Master]

I'm happy to enter through the door. The term "Added" clearly implies that the given chord is NOT built by only 'stacking' thirds. And, that there is NO minor seventh involved.



I explained, very clearly, about that:

".... Perhaps you are talking about, for instance, the iii chord (i.e. E Minor, from the example) and adding an interval of a sixth above the root - E to C, giving a chord spelling of E, G, B, C. The problem is that there are now two groups of intervals, E to B, AND G to C that are "fighting" to establish a Root. Being in the Key of C Major, I believe that the G to C will win out and more strongly imply that the Root Note is C. This also applies to the vi chord, the (original) root (A) is weakened in favor of the Added Six (F) and making the chord a IVM7 in first inversion. I believe this is why the Professor left out the added six to the iii (Em) and vi (Am)."

The resulting chord of: E, G, B, C will become a first inversion IM7 - CM7/E.

The resulting chord of: A, C, E, F will become a first inversion IVM7 - FM7/A.

Both the Professor and myself recognized this many posts back.

There are plenty examples of these chord voicings.

You are right about the Emib6 been the same as the CMaj7/E but again this is not a pleasant and practical sound or chord function. This is the reason the minor min6 chord is not possible because of the cluster in the upper voice in root position and same for the Major 7 chord in its first inversion. The structure of the first inversion of a Maj7 chord is to be avoid and this is the reason the 6th is used as a substitution for the major7 on major7 chords when the root is on top. This prove my point that x6 chords are available only on the IMaj and IVMaj degrees of the major scale. The II and the V degrees need the minor 7th before adding the 6th that will then function as the 13th.

There are no-practical use of this chord structure unless you are looking to add dissonance to your music which is not a pleasant sound unless used in a horror movie soundtrack ;-).

Like I said before the 7th can be replaced by the 6th or you change the top (root) by the 9th which in the case of FMa7 would become FMaj9 or in first inversion a Amin7.

I'm sure you aware of all these things. It is just in practical application these are very useful rules to apply to get a very pleasant and definite sound.

For all these reasons and the structure of stack thirds to form 4parts-chords in a diatonic context, i think it is wrong to say that Dmin6 and G6 are practical chords in the key of C major.

 

[Groove Master]

I think I found out what is the confusion here and it is our definition of an inversion.

In theory or in an arranging context an inversion of a chord can be seen two ways:

1) It can be consider by the note played that the bass or the lower note in the orchestra like C/E could be seen as a major chord in its first inversion.

2) The way I was refering to an inversion is actually the voicing that is used to define what note is at the bottom and top of the voicing without consideration of what is played by the bass player. It is actually the way to voice a chord in a closed-way that contain the 4 notes of the chord within an octave span. In this case no matter what note is played by the bass player, still the first inversion of a major 7th chord is not practical due to the cluster on top of the voicing like this (top to bottom) C-B-G-E.......It doesn't matter if the bass plays the root,third or fifth, it won't sound good. Even less if the 7 is in the bass or lower then one octave forming the most dissonant interval in music; the minor ninth !

Voilà, I think the confusion was there.......I hope ;-)