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More Watts or More Speakers (Markbass)

Howdy all. I’m looking to upgrade my 30 year old Ampeg B2 4x8 combo bass. It’s been repaired a few times, weighs a ton, and has no DI out.

I think I’ve settled on Markbass for the weight/price. I’m a 45year old School of Rock student picking music back up with the kiddo and wife. The adult band would be playing small gigs. Maybe medium someday.

I went to the local Guitar center and was happy with the tone of a 2x10 Markbass pure and amp. I use an active bass and like it a bit bright and found no issues getting a good sound. Certainly a step up from my old ampeg which is boomy and warm.

Looking at a 4x10 Markbass pure which comes as an 800 watt cab at 4 or 8ohm. Also looking at the Markbass tube 800 which runs 800 watts at 4ohm or 500 watts at 8ohm.

Does it make much volume difference going the 8ohm 500 watts route vs the 4ohm 800 watt route? My thought being should I go 4ohm for max power understanding I cannno add another cab due to ohm limits or should I go for the 500 watts 8ohm and have the option to run two cabs later at 400 watts each?

I wasn’t sure if the full 800 watts would make any realistic benefit over 500 watts for a single cab. My understanding is that even at half power more speakers would be a large volume increase. It’s not easy to find all this in stock to try out so thanks in advance.
Going from 500 watts to 800 watts in basically the same cabinet is not going to get you a huge boost in volume. Only around 2 dB or so! Definitely noticeable, especially at high volumes, but not a giant boost at all.

I think you are much better off with the 8 ohm cabinet. If you find yourself having to turn the amp all the way up, adding another of the same cabinets will get you +6 dB and a lot more low end.
 
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The cab with the total largest surface area of the drivers and the highest efficiency will be the loudest.

An amp of 500 watts and the ability to drive speakers from 2 to 8 ohms is often quite enough. Nevertheless, most of the bass players I know that play rock music all have a 800 watts amp nowadays.
 
Is running the amp below the cab protective? Is it harmful to crank it up when you’re only putting 500 watts into an 800 watt cab? Better to match or as long as you’re under the RMS of the cab you’re good?

Again much appreciated.
No problem...It is just that 800 watts is the maximum to use......unless you are very careful with even more power from an amp!
 
Two things:

You always buy as much power as you can afford, within budget, they types of gigs, size of the rooms, etc. : You can turn big amps down. You can't turn little amps up, and more power (if you've carefully matched the power to the speaker cabinet) offers more control and less distortion.

And in the real world, more speaker(s) get you louder faster than more power. Same head, same ohms, same power, generally 4x10 is louder than 2x10 is louder than 1x12 or 1x15 in a lot of cases.
 
Two things:

You always buy as much power as you can afford, within budget, they types of gigs, size of the rooms, etc. : You can turn big amps down. You can't turn little amps up, and more power (if you've carefully matched the power to the speaker cabinet) offers more control and less distortion.

And in the real world, more speaker(s) get you louder faster than more power. Same head, same ohms, same power, generally 4x10 is louder than 2x10 is louder than 1x12 or 1x15 in a lot of cases.
This has all been great. Speaking of as much power as you can afford… the markbass 1000w heads are only $50 more than the 800 watt. I tried a 500watt version of the head at guitar center and sounded great. Tested the same cab with a Darkglass and honestly liked the MB amp better.

I was a little concerned about MB for rock/metal but took my active Spector and sounded good. These are student gigs at open mics so I’m not looking for perfect tone (and I have pedals to help with that) but just weight weight weight and cost.

Running 8ohm I’ll get 600 watts for the 800 watt 4x10. If I ever got another 8ohm cab I believe I can daisy them and run 500 to each at 4ohm. I doubt I’ll ever need to expand but I guess it’s nice to have the option. This is a hobby for me as a student and something to do with my kid and wife.

Again. Huge thanks to everyone.
 

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Howdy all. I’m looking to upgrade my 30 year old Ampeg B2 4x8 combo bass. It’s been repaired a few times, weighs a ton, and has no DI out.

I think I’ve settled on Markbass for the weight/price. I’m a 45year old School of Rock student picking music back up with the kiddo and wife. The adult band would be playing small gigs. Maybe medium someday.

I went to the local Guitar center and was happy with the tone of a 2x10 Markbass pure and amp. I use an active bass and like it a bit bright and found no issues getting a good sound. Certainly a step up from my old ampeg which is boomy and warm.

Looking at a 4x10 Markbass pure which comes as an 800 watt cab at 4 or 8ohm. Also looking at the Markbass tube 800 which runs 800 watts at 4ohm or 500 watts at 8ohm.

Does it make much volume difference going the 8ohm 500 watts route vs the 4ohm 800 watt route? My thought being should I go 4ohm for max power understanding I cannno add another cab due to ohm limits or should I go for the 500 watts 8ohm and have the option to run two cabs later at 400 watts each?

I wasn’t sure if the full 800 watts would make any realistic benefit over 500 watts for a single cab. My understanding is that even at half power more speakers would be a large volume increase. It’s not easy to find all this in stock to try out so thanks in advance.
The short of it:
I very much agree with @Wasnex said, get two 8Ω 210 cabs. Use one for small and medium-sized venues and both of them large venues and outdoors. It's a very modular solution that lets you bring what you need to the gig without hauling around more of being told by a venue, not to bring in your 410. However, the trick is to make sure you get 210 cabs that can handle the power.

The Long of it:
That Little Mark Tube 800 will put out 500-watts into 8Ω and 800-watts rms into 4Ω. So you're going to need to look for 210-cabs that can handle 500-watts rms each. You can get by with using cabs that handle less than that as long as you don't crank them and you listen to your sound to make sure you are not getting distortion caused by the speakers and not the tube. Honestly if you run distortion from your amp anyhow and you crank the master on the one cab, odds are you will blow the cab before you realized it is stressed. So if you are running a clean signal, not cranking the master, and keep your bass EQ reasonably close to flat, using a single cab with 400-watts handling power will work. A 210 cab with 300-watts rms handling power really won't. It's just too easy to nudge the sound up higher than is safe with that much disparity - one accidental bump of the master could blow the speakers.

Both of them together should work fine with that amp because it would split the 800-watts out to 400-watts per cab (using two 8Ω cabs). With Markbass that means your options are either of the MB58R 102 XL PURE or their MB58R 102 XL ENERGY. Both of those will handle 400-watts rms. Getting a single 410 cab that will handle 800-watts is easier, but not if the venue doesn't allow you to bring a 410 into their venue...been there, done that.

I can tell you a couple of things that I regret doing. I bought a DNS-410 cab back in 2015. It will handle 1400-watts rms and has a max SPL rating of 137db. I figured it would replace my old 410+115 stack and I should never have to buy another cab again. Well that DNS-410 did not disappoint. Amazingly clear, clean, articulate sound with a tightly focused bottom end and it is LOUD! Thought I'd died and gone to heaven. It arrived 2-days before I moved from Virginia to Washington state.

I ended up joining two groups in Washington and one of them hosted a 7PM to 10PM Open Mic Night at a small local brewpub almost every Friday night (over 40 Friday nights a year). I rolled my 410 in and then had to roll it back out again. It about gave the owner apoplexy. Said it was way too much for his brewpub and insisted I use his Peavey 112 combo instead. Never considered my cab might be too much for somewhere. "You know I do have a master volume control on my amp and it still sounds good turned down." He was having none of that and I got stuck with the Peavey 112 combo that I just couldn't get a good sound out of. In any case there are over 400 brewpubs in Washington and a lot of them are small venues who have the same reaction when I try to bring in my 410. So size matters and needs to match the venue.

In 2019 when I got my DNA Endorsement, I bought the DNS-210. It handles 700-watts, has a max SPL of 134db and nobody ever looks twice at a bass player bringing in a 210. It has all the same sonic characteristics to its sound as the 410 but goes a little lower, reproducing the fundamentals down to 34Hz (DNS-410 goes down the 37db). Since it was rated at 700-watts power handling, I went ahead and used my 800-watt Eden WT500/800 amp bridged at 800-watts into it. That cab is so loud I've never run the master of my big Eden amp higher than 10:30 with it. And that's more than enough to fill a large venue. I've ended up using it for all my indoor venues now and just reserve my 410 for outdoor venues and Music Festivals.

Point is that I should have purchased the 210 first and then later, when I needed it, bought the second DNS-210 cab. That way I could take the 210 to most of my gigs but add a second one to use as needed outdoors. The DNS-210 is in a big box and it weighs 52-lbs. That's lighter than the Eden 210 cabs that David designed for Eden, but there are lighter ones out there. HOWEVER, there are very few 210 cabs that can handle 700-watts with enough sensitivity to fill a large indoor venue and that 52-lbs is considerably lighter than my DNS-410.

At wide-open music festivals I use my 410 but if I turn the master on my Eden amp up to 10:30, I always get told by the sound crew to turn down. So I pull it down to 10:15 and that seems to mollify them while still keeping me happy. I've no doubt I would get the same result using 2x210 cabs instead of the one 410. Good news is that I never need to get an 810 cab and lug that around. Bad news is that although I have both the 410 and 210, there's really no reason to ever stack them and run both at once. It does really look good though. I stacked them the first time I tried playing a large venue with the 210 so I could unplug the 210 and plug in the 410 if needed. The DNS-210 though more than handled it, so I just ran the 210 all night and used my DNS 410 as a very expensive amp stand. As you can see below, the stack did look good though!

1_540x860.jpg


Before I bought that DNS-210 though, I looked for an Eden 112 combo. They didn't have one when I was looking but I could buy an Eden EX-112 cab for just $265. Eden's top of the line D112XST cab on the other hand is a good $600 more. I have a friend in the UK who has been using his EX-112 cabs for years and loves them, so I decided to take a chance and order one. Since I figured I'd only ever use one, I went ahead and got the 4Ω version instead of the 8Ω. That was my second mistake.

The first night I played through that EX-112 cab, I was amazed at how good it sounds. So good in fact that I ordered a second one the next day so I could use two of them at our medium-sized venues. Those cabs are really compact because they don't have a separate tweeter horn. Instead it has a whizzer cone which is a second cone inside the woofer cone. That arrangement was why I was originally hesitant about the cab. Often hi-mids and highs are weak and fragile with that type of cone. But that wasn't a problem with these cabs at all. They do sound great and I got a lot of compliments over the year+ that I used them.

The cabs use Neo speakers and each cab weighs 30-lbs. But, because I bought them as 4Ω cabs, the only amp I had that will handle both of them was my big Eden cab. It puts out 400-watts into 4Ω per channel. Their handling power is 300-watts rms, so I knew I'd have to be careful not to crank the amp when driving them. I usually played medium-sized venues with my master around 9:30 or 10 o'clock though, so I've never stressed them. Even though my stack looked like a giant "T" with my WT500/800 hanging over the edge of the speakers, it really sounds good and I received a lot of complements over the time I used them. If I had bought the first in 8Ω and then the second also in 8Ω, I could have used my 400-watt into 4Ω Eden amp to drive the two of them without the worry of stressing the speakers.

2x112Rig_460x700.jpg


Until 2019, I used one EX-112 cab in small-venues and two in medium-sized venues. Although I no longer use both of those 112's, I still do use one of them for small venues and drive it with an Eden class D TN-226 (225-watts rms). That's a great sound and a very light setup. I put the 4.7-lb. amp in its shoulder bag over one shoulder, my gig bag over the other shoulder, grab the cab by it's handle (top back center) in one hand and my bass in its case in the other and move everything in or out one trip. And to top it off, everything fits just fine in a chair without overhanging the edges.

TN226PlusEX112_600x846.jpg


And, of course, if I had purchased these 2 cabs in 8Ω I would have opted for the Eden 500-watt into 4Ω class D TN-501 (5.3-lbs) instead of the lower power TN-226 (225-watts into 4Ω). That would not only have looked better than using my heavy WT500/800 (37½-lbs in its rack). Yes indeed, hindsight is a great thing.
 
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The short of it:
I very much agree with @Wasnex said, get two 8Ω 210 cabs. Use one for small and medium-sized venues and both of them large venues and outdoors. It's a very modular solution that lets you bring what you need to the gig without hauling around more of being told by a venue, not to bring in your 410. However, the trick is to make sure you get 210 cabs that can handle the power.

The Long of it:
That Little Mark Tube 800 will put out 500-watts into 8Ω and 800-watts rms into 4Ω. So you're going to need to look for 210-cabs that can handle 500-watts rms each. You can get by with using cabs that handle less than that as long as you don't crank them and you listen to your sound to make sure you are not getting distortion caused by the speakers and not the tube. Honestly if you run distortion from your amp anyhow and you crank the master on the one cab, odds are you will blow the cab before you realized it is stressed. So if you are running a clean signal, not cranking the master, and keep your bass EQ reasonably close to flat, using a single cab with 400-watts handling power will work. A 210 cab with 300-watts rms handling power really won't. It's just too easy to nudge the sound up higher than is safe with that much disparity - one accidental bump of the master could blow the speakers.

Both of them together should work fine with that amp because it would split the 800-watts out to 400-watts per cab (using two 8Ω cabs). With Markbass that means your options are either of the MB58R 102 XL PURE or their MB58R 102 XL ENERGY. Both of those will handle 400-watts rms. Getting a single 410 cab that will handle 800-watts is easier, but not if the venue doesn't allow you to bring a 410 into their venue...been there, done that.

I can tell you a couple of things that I regret doing. I bought a DNS-410 cab back in 2015. It will handle 1400-watts rms and has a max SPL rating of 137db. I figured it would replace my old 410+115 stack and I should never have to buy another cab again. Well that DNS-410 did not disappoint. Amazingly clear, clean, articulate sound with a tightly focused bottom end and it is LOUD! Thought I'd died and gone to heaven. It arrived 2-days before I moved from Virginia to Washington state.

I ended up joining two groups in Washington and one of them hosted a 7PM to 10PM Open Mic Night at a small local brewpub almost every Friday night (over 40 Friday nights a year). I rolled my 410 in and then had to roll it back out again. It about gave the owner apoplexy. Said it was way too much for his brewpub and insisted I use his Peavey 112 combo instead. Never considered my cab might be too much for somewhere. "You know I do have a master volume control on my amp and it still sounds good turned down." He was having none of that and I got stuck with the Peavey 112 combo that I just couldn't get a good sound out of. In any case there are over 400 brewpubs in Washington and a lot of them are small venues who have the same reaction when I try to bring in my 410. So size matters and needs to match the venue.

In 2019 when I got my DNA Endorsement, I bought the DNS-210. It handles 700-watts, has a max SPL of 134db and nobody ever looks twice at a bass player bringing in a 210. It has all the same sonic characteristics to its sound as the 410 but goes a little lower, reproducing the fundamentals down to 34Hz (DNS-410 goes down the 37db). Since it was rated at 700-watts power handling, I went ahead and used my 800-watt Eden WT500/800 amp bridged at 800-watts into it. That cab is so loud I've never run the master of my big Eden amp higher than 10:30 with it. And that's more than enough to fill a large venue. I've ended up using it for all my indoor venues now and just reserve my 410 for outdoor venues and Music Festivals.

Point is that I should have purchased the 210 first and then later, when I needed it, bought the second DNS-210 cab. That way I could take the 210 to most of my gigs but add a second one to use as needed outdoors. The DNS-210 is in a big box and it weighs 52-lbs. That's lighter than the Eden 210 cabs that David designed for Eden, but there are lighter ones out there. HOWEVER, there are very few 210 cabs that can handle 700-watts with enough sensitivity to fill a large indoor venue and that 52-lbs is considerably lighter than my DNS-410.

At wide-open music festivals I use my 410 but if I turn the master on my Eden amp up to 10:30, I always get told by the sound crew to turn down. So I pull it down to 10:15 and that seems to mollify them while still keeping me happy. I've no doubt I would get the same result using 2x210 cabs instead of the one 410. Good news is that I never need to get an 810 cab and lug that around. Bad news is that although I have both the 410 and 210, there's really no reason to ever stack them and run both at once. It does really look good though. I stacked them the first time I tried playing a large venue with the 210 so I could unplug the 210 and plug in the 410 if needed. The DNS-210 though more than handled it, so I just ran the 210 all night and used my DNS 410 as a very expensive amp stand. As you can see below, the stack did look good though!

View attachment 7172567

Before I bought that DNS-210 though, I looked for an Eden 112 combo. They didn't have one when I was looking but I could buy an Eden EX-112 cab for just $265. Eden's top of the line D112XST cab on the other hand is a good $600 more. I have a friend in the UK who has been using his EX-112 cabs for years and loves them, so I decided to take a chance and order one. Since I figured I'd only ever use one, I went ahead and got the 4Ω version instead of the 8Ω. That was my second mistake.

The first night I played through that EX-112 cab, I was amazed at how good it sounds. So good in fact that I ordered a second one the next day so I could use two of them at our medium-sized venues. Those cabs are really compact because they don't have a separate tweeter horn. Instead it has a whizzer cone which is a second cone inside the woofer cone. That arrangement was why I was originally hesitant about the cab. Often hi-mids and highs are weak and fragile with that type of cone. But that wasn't a problem with these cabs at all. They do sound great and I got a lot of compliments over the year+ that I used them.

The cabs use Neo speakers and each cab weighs 30-lbs. But, because I bought them as 4Ω cabs, the only amp I had that will handle both of them was my big Eden cab. It puts out 400-watts into 4Ω per channel. Their handling power is 300-watts rms, so I knew I'd have to be careful not to crank the amp when driving them. I usually played medium-sized venues with my master around 9:30 or 10 o'clock though, so I've never stressed them. Even though my stack looked like a giant "T" with my WT500/800 hanging over the edge of the speakers, it really sounds good and I received a lot of complements over the time I used them. If I had bought the first in 8Ω and then the second also in 8Ω, I could have used my 400-watt into 4Ω Eden amp to drive the two of them without the worry of stressing the speakers.

View attachment 7172578

Until 2019, I used one EX-112 cab in small-venues and two in medium-sized venues. Although I no longer use both of those 112's, I still do use one of them for small venues and drive it with an Eden class D TN-226 (225-watts rms). That's a great sound and a very light setup. I put the 4.7-lb. amp in its shoulder bag over one shoulder, my gig bag over the other shoulder, grab the cab by it's handle (top back center) in one hand and my bass in its case in the other and move everything in or out one trip. And to top it off, everything fits just fine in a chair without overhanging the edges.

View attachment 7172591

And, of course, if I had purchased these 2 cabs in 8Ω I would have opted for the Eden 500-watt into 4Ω class D TN-501 (5.3-lbs) instead of the lower power TN-226 (225-watts into 4Ω). That would not only have looked better than using my heavy WT500/800 (37½-lbs in its rack). Yes indeed, hindsight is a great thing.
That was a thoroughly enjoyable journey to read. I agree with top stack looks great. The “T” stack does look hilarious.

I do have the option of borrowing a fender rumble from the school if I ever needed something much smaller. I like the idea of the 2-2x10 but it’s somewhat of a cost thing. It’s $1600 vs $999 for the 4x10 and the weight is 12 extra lbs. So at least for me the size and weight aren’t an issue.

Markbass makes a 2x12 that’s physically smaller (though mysteriously weighs more) and costs the same and has the same 800watt handling as the 4x10. So that could be a compromise.

You bring up a great point about a venue freaking out. We have one main venue we are looking at for open mic (again we aren’t paid musicians but students). I can talk to the owner before I buy. Worst case I can borrow a rumble from the school if we ever hit a place that says hells no. Personally I hate rumbles and those kids beat the shite out of them. Muddy mess.
 
This setup seems to get the job done at a reasonable price. I was just unsure about which ohm cab to get given the price is the same and the potential to expand on the future. Everyone has been super helpful in that regard.

I’ve listened to a lot of cabs, not many in person. I love Darkglass pedals, but honestly I just can’t bring myself to pay the premium on their heads/cabs for made in China. I’m sure they work and sounds great…but for that price it’s a hard pass. I was very disappointed to see they aren’t made in Finland.

Mesa Boogie looks super nice, made in the USA. Great warranty. They were my second choice. The build quality seems top notch and the heads have all features I’d use. Their cabs sounded muddy from what I heard (though I’m sure you could tune them better). They’re just significantly heavier and more expensive by a lot.

GK I’ve read some reliability issues. Not that that would stop me. The cabs sounded almost too bright for me. Again. Sure I could tune that better. I have no desire for any effects in my amp. I have a peddle board for that. Again. Just weight and cost.

Orange is insanely expensive but undeniably beautiful. The sound is great. I mean if I win the lottery and have someone to carry it sure an orange 4x10 and AD200B for sure.

Bergentino sound amazing. But price. They’d be my number 2 lottery choice after orange.

Ampeg, Aguilar, Ashdown, etc…. The Markbass just sounded fine, was priced compared to a lot of the Chinese brands but made in the EU, and weighs the least. It’s number one in weight and kinda middle of the road everywhere else. My back said go with them and I should be able to get the tone I want with my board. I didn’t try my whole board at guitar center but just my bass sounded great.
 

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I prefer the sound of amps that are running comfortably within their parameters. I don't run my Aguilar amps beyond 1 o'clock on the volume controls.

For the best tone, buy the best cab you can find. One that has been designed correctly.

For maximum flexibility I would suggest a modular approach. More cabs gives you more volume and more/better tone, because you're moving more air. Small gigs get my 112. Larger/louder gigs get my 2 x 112 rig.
 
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Trigger pulled.

Musician’s friend had the 4ohm Markbass Pure for $750 and the Little mark Tube 800 for $650.

That made it even cheaper than a 2x10 setup. Why was it so cheap. No clue. Asked the sales guy and he said it would be new in box from the warehouse so not demos.

I thought about just lugging my 35 year old B2 around but decided to weigh it…. 100lbs without casters. NOPE!
 
So what did you get after all ?
Hahaha. I got the markbass 4x10 and a markbass tube 800 head.

It’s been great. Plenty loud enough and I like that I can connect two basses to the amp head for practices (one through the 1/4 and one through the XLR via a DI out). We have a few bass players that play on different songs and sometimes I use my 6 string bass to fill in between the lower basses and the guitar.
 
You need to consider the cab's sensitivity rating, power handling, and how much power the amp can deliver.

If the cab can take it, doubling the power gets you +3dB. In this case, the difference between 500 watts and 800W is 2.04dB

If you add a matching cab but hold the power constant, we normally assume the sensitivity increases +3dB. Note. This assumes perfect acoustic coupling. Real world gain may be closer to +2dB. As Markbass rates their 410 at 103dB 1W/1m sensitivity and their matching 210 at 101dB, I will use +2dB in this post.

If you add a matching cab and double the power, you get +5dB. If you add a matching cab and raise the power from 500W to 800W you get +4.04dB

There is more than one Pure 410. MB58R 104 Pure is rated 800W with 103dB 1W/1m sensitivity.

Calculated SPL:
  • At 500W = ~130dB
  • At 800W = ~132dB
  • Pair of 104s at 800W = ~134dB
My guess is these figures are a bit optimistic, as the way sensitivity ratings are determined is not standardized. But my guess is a single 410 at either 500W or 800W would be sufficient for most.

If you have the cash and 132dB will meet the vast majority of your needs, consider building a modular rig with a pair of 8 ohm 210s. This allows you to bring a smaller rig when it is sufficient, but you have the bigger gun when you need it.

M58R 102 Pure is rated 400W with 101dB 1W/1m sensitivity.

Calculated SPL:
  • At 400W = ~127dB
  • Pair of 102s at 800W = ~132dB
Your first statement is accurate. However, the rest of your analysis holds true only if the speaker is operating in its linear range (not exceeding Xmax) during all levels of increased power applied, which is very rarely the case, if at all, when running out of, or near max volume. I'm a big proponent of doubling the speaker's cone area as you have a much better chance of getting a more linear SPL/Watt relationship, at least initially. Just adding more power to a given speaker rarely, if at all, gives you a linear return on power applied and only diminishes the tonal quality of the system with increasing power, IMO.
 
That's the difference between 350hp and 400hp in the car you go to work and get groceries with.
Get the one that looks the coolest sounds better to you. If it's a toss-up sonically I'd save the $50.

Lots of "Modern day Family Grocery getter" SUVs have 350-400hp and more. (just sayin).

That Said, just because you have "350-400hp" doesn't mean you have to FLOOR It every time you go get groceries.

Same theory for a 1000-Watt Bass amp. You don't HAVE To Dime the Volume Every time you plug in.

Just like a Big HP car, Big Watts Amp, Big Bank Account or a Big D*ck, You don't have to use it ALL at Once.


THAT said, I'll still take the 1000W. :thumbsup:

YMMV, and that's ok too.


T$
 
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