More Watts or More Speakers (Markbass)

[FuzzyToeBean]

Howdy all. I’m looking to upgrade my 30 year old Ampeg B2 4x8 combo bass. It’s been repaired a few times, weighs a ton, and has no DI out.

I think I’ve settled on Markbass for the weight/price. I’m a 45year old School of Rock student picking music back up with the kiddo and wife. The adult band would be playing small gigs. Maybe medium someday.

I went to the local Guitar center and was happy with the tone of a 2x10 Markbass pure and amp. I use an active bass and like it a bit bright and found no issues getting a good sound. Certainly a step up from my old ampeg which is boomy and warm.

Looking at a 4x10 Markbass pure which comes as an 800 watt cab at 4 or 8ohm. Also looking at the Markbass tube 800 which runs 800 watts at 4ohm or 500 watts at 8ohm.

Does it make much volume difference going the 8ohm 500 watts route vs the 4ohm 800 watt route? My thought being should I go 4ohm for max power understanding I cannno add another cab due to ohm limits or should I go for the 500 watts 8ohm and have the option to run two cabs later at 400 watts each?

I wasn’t sure if the full 800 watts would make any realistic benefit over 500 watts for a single cab. My understanding is that even at half power more speakers would be a large volume increase. It’s not easy to find all this in stock to try out so thanks in advance.

 

[buldog5151bass]

Adding speakers will do a LOT more to increase volume.

 

[Wasnex]

You need to consider the cab's sensitivity rating, power handling, and how much power the amp can deliver.

If the cab can take it, doubling the power gets you +3dB. In this case, the difference between 500 watts and 800W is 2.04dB

If you add a matching cab but hold the power constant, we normally assume the sensitivity increases +3dB. Note. This assumes perfect acoustic coupling. Real world gain may be closer to +2dB. As Markbass rates their 410 at 103dB 1W/1m sensitivity and their matching 210 at 101dB, I will use +2dB in this post.

If you add a matching cab and double the power, you get +5dB. If you add a matching cab and raise the power from 500W to 800W you get +4.04dB

There is more than one Pure 410. MB58R 104 Pure is rated 800W with 103dB 1W/1m sensitivity.

Calculated SPL:

• At 500W = ~130dB
• At 800W = ~132dB
• Pair of 104s at 800W = ~134dB

My guess is these figures are a bit optimistic, as the way sensitivity ratings are determined is not standardized. But my guess is a single 410 at either 500W or 800W would be sufficient for most.

If you have the cash and 132dB will meet the vast majority of your needs, consider building a modular rig with a pair of 8 ohm 210s. This allows you to bring a smaller rig when it is sufficient, but you have the bigger gun when you need it.

M58R 102 Pure is rated 400W with 101dB 1W/1m sensitivity.

Calculated SPL:

• At 400W = ~127dB
• Pair of 102s at 800W = ~132dB

 

[LiptonJigglers]

I vote the 4ohm single cab with multiple speakers.

If I can get the job done with one cab, then that's what I'm going with.

Carting two cabs around was unbearable thanks to both kidneys weighing in at almost 10lb each.. (no longer a problem but age must play its part too).

 

[FuzzyToeBean]

You need to consider the cab's sensitivity rating, power handling, and how much power the amp can deliver.

If the cab can take it, doubling the power gets you +3dB. In this case, the difference between 500 watts and 800W is 2.04dB

If you add a matching cab but hold the power constant, we normally assume the sensitivity increases +3dB. Note. This assumes perfect acoustic coupling. Real world gain may be closer to +2dB. As Markbass rates their 410 at 103dB 1W/1m sensitivity and their matching 210 at 101dB, I will use +2dB in this post.

If you add a matching cab and double the power, you get +5dB. If you add a matching cab and raise the power from 500W to 800W you get +4.04dB

There is more than one Pure 410. MB58R 104 Pure is rated 800W with 103dB 1W/1m sensitivity.

Calculated SPL:

• At 500W = ~130dB
• At 800W = ~132dB
• Pair of 104s at 800W = ~134dB

My guess is these figures are a bit optimistic, as the way sensitivity ratings are determined is not standardized. But my guess is a single 410 at either 500W or 800W would be sufficient for most.

If you have the cash and 132dB will meet the vast majority of your needs, consider building a modular rig with a pair of 8 ohm 210s. This allows you to bring a smaller rig when it is sufficient, but you have the bigger gun when you need it.

M58R 102 Pure is rated 400W with 101dB 1W/1m sensitivity.

Calculated SPL:

• At 400W = ~127dB
• Pair of 102s at 800W = ~132dB

This is awesome. Sounds like there isn’t a huge difference either way. The 410 seemed pretty versatile and the weight is so low it’s should be a non issue. I think like 37lbs which is nuts. Seems like this will suffice for anywhere I can imagine playing and be portable enough.

I can see the 2-2x10 cabs modularity being nice for people who are varied in their gigs. Honestly a single 2x10 is probably enough for anywhere I’m going to play but the price difference isn’t much for a 4x10 over a single 2x10 and this is lame but I kinda like the space on top lol for home and yeah this is cheaper.

Thanks again,
G.

 

[baxter_x]

More surface, better volume.

 

[jthisdell]

Calculated SPL:

• At 500W = ~130dB
• At 800W = ~132dB
• Pair of 104s at 800W = ~134dB

Personally I am not going to play at any of these volume levels. I typically use a 500w amp at 4ohms into one 210 cab at 8ohms so 250 watts at 8ohms and never go above 12:00. And that is a four piece Dead band, elec guitar, elec mandolin, bass and drums. Hearing is important, yours, your family’s and the audience’s. You may find one 210 is more than enough.

Per google:

A sound at 130 decibels is extremely loud, comparable to a jet plane taking off, a jackhammer, or a gunshot at close range; essentially, it's considered one of the loudest sounds a human can tolerate without experiencing immediate pain.

 

[FuzzyToeBean]

Personally I am not going to play at any of these volume levels. I typically use a 500w amp at 4ohms into one 210 cab at 8ohms so 250 watts at 8ohms and never go above 12:00. And that is a four piece Dead band, elec guitar, elec mandolin, bass and drums. Hearing is important, yours, your family’s and the audience’s. You may find one 210 is more than enough.

Per google:

A sound at 130 decibels is extremely loud, comparable to a jet plane taking off, a jackhammer, or a gunshot at close range; essentially, it's considered one of the loudest sounds a human can tolerate without experiencing immediate pain.

I am meticulous about my hearing in my old age and my watch alerts me over 85db. Even on the field at Metallica it was only about 105db.

I didn’t realize I could get those volumes so appreciate everyone. Sounds like whether j go for 8ohm or 4ohm it will be far more than I need.

 

[Al Kraft]

IME all other things being equal, I find adding more speakers gets me more than running up the power into a single cab. You will get something extra feeding four speakers 800 Watts instead of 500 Watts. However, I've never heard the difference turn out to be as significant as the change in power would lead one to believe.

500 Watts into a good 410 will get seriously loud. Adding 300 Watts to that mix will be significantly less noticeable (at any volume level) than adding another 410 with both cabs getting 400 Watts. If you can, go try it out in a store and see what you think.

Wasnex's suggestion on the two 8 Ohm 210's is also a great alternative. Additionally, two 212 cabs will really wake up a crowd and IME a single 212 can often carry a larger venue that a single 210 would struggle with.

 

[FuzzyToeBean]

Is running the amp below the cab protective? Is it harmful to crank it up when you’re only putting 500 watts into an 800 watt cab? Better to match or as long as you’re under the RMS of the cab you’re good?

Again much appreciated.

 

[Mastiff_5]

All the watts. All the speakers.
Yes.

 

[Al Kraft]

Is running the amp below the cab protective? Is it harmful to crank it up when you’re only putting 500 watts into an 800 watt cab? Better to match or as long as you’re under the RMS of the cab you’re good?

Again much appreciated.

It's perfectly fine to have an amp with a max rated output that's lower than a cab's max rated input.

 

[FuzzyToeBean]

IME all other things being equal, I find adding more speakers gets me more than running up the power into a single cab. You will get something extra feeding four speakers 800 Watts instead of 500 Watts. However, I've never heard the difference turn to be as significant as the change in power would lead one to believe.

500 Watts into a good 410 will get seriously loud. Adding 300 Watts to that mix will be significantly less noticeable (at any volume level) than adding another 410 with both cabs getting 400 Watts. If you can go try it out in a store and see what you think.

Wasnex's suggestion on the two 8 Ohm 210's is also a great alternative. Additionally, two 212 cabs will really wake up a crowd and IME a single 212 can often carry a larger venue that a single 210 would struggle with.

I was surprised the markbass 2x12 was heavier than the 4x10 and didn’t go as low freq wise (I use that B string and sometime downtune it to A). 2x12 was my original plan but hey… it’s lower weight for the 4x10. lol.

 

[dvdtlsn]

I play a MB Littlemark 800 regularly at church. It is light, powerful, loud, sounds good, and has taken much abuse without failure. We run with a 115. If I was going to go with MB, I would get a 800W head and 2 115 cabs. ...usual reasoning that 1 cab can cover most to all of gig scenarios.

I have played the MB 410 in real gig situations and it is good, but not as good/versatile as 2 115s IMHO

 

[Jens Telemark]

I am meticulous about my hearing in my old age and my watch alerts me over 85db. Even on the field at Metallica it was only about 105db.

I didn’t realize I could get those volumes so appreciate everyone. Sounds like whether j go for 8ohm or 4ohm it will be far more than I need.

Headroom is good. Better looking at it than for it.

As is clear to you by now the difference between 8 and 4 ohms seems better on paper than it actually sounds. Another factor that's often overlooked is if you go deeper into speaker specs you see that the average 4 ohm speaker is often slightly less efficient than the same speaker at 8 ohms. So that small increase in calculated SPL you get from 8 ohms to 4 might not be there on a dB meter. The math to really tell much from a spec sheet gets very complicated very fast especially when comparing different types of speakers. Makes my layman's brain hurt so I just use an amp with adequate headroom and let my ears do the thinking.

Increasing the amount of speakers on the other hand is something you will hear. Think about an acoustic orchestra. What's louder to the audience, a 16 piece violin section or one with only 4 violins?

 

[MultiScaleMale]

The sensitivity between the 4 ohm and 8 ohm versions of the same speaker can vary. That is beyond most consumer’s ability to research (I’m including myself in that category). I would go with enough speakers to achieve the desired SPL in the impedance that will be compatible with the desired amp having enough wattage to power the cabs with some headroom leftover.

That’s in the idealistic world. In reality, I play what’s available and try to make it work.

 

[TheReceder]

The best I ever sounded was using16 10s at low volume. At one point in my life insanity ruled.

Now... I'm a fan of having 2 cabs with 2 10s available. I usually plan on only 1 cab. I have a 610 cab and a 2x15 cab collecteing dust. Both of the bigger cabs are easier to transport than my old 4x10.

 

[brianrost]

I wasn’t sure if the full 800 watts would make any realistic benefit over 500 watts for a single cab. My understanding is that even at half power more speakers would be a large volume increase. It’s not easy to find all this in stock to try out so thanks in advance.

More speakers before more watts should be your mantra.

Into the exact same speaker, an 800 watt amp will be less than 3dB louder then the 500 watt amp when both are at the onset of clipping. 3dB isn't a lot. Twice as loud to your ears would be 10dB and that requires 10 times the wattage...seen any 5000 watt amps and speakers lately?

Stick to 8 ohm cabinets because that way you can have two of them. Most amps will handle two 8 ohm cabs (a 4 ohm load) but not many can drive two 4 ohm cabs (a 2 ohm load).

 

[InhumanResource]

Howdy all. I’m looking to upgrade my 30 year old Ampeg B2 4x8 combo bass. It’s been repaired a few times, weighs a ton, and has no DI out.

I think I’ve settled on Markbass for the weight/price. I’m a 45year old School of Rock student picking music back up with the kiddo and wife. The adult band would be playing small gigs. Maybe medium someday.

I went to the local Guitar center and was happy with the tone of a 2x10 Markbass pure and amp. I use an active bass and like it a bit bright and found no issues getting a good sound. Certainly a step up from my old ampeg which is boomy and warm.

Looking at a 4x10 Markbass pure which comes as an 800 watt cab at 4 or 8ohm. Also looking at the Markbass tube 800 which runs 800 watts at 4ohm or 500 watts at 8ohm.

Does it make much volume difference going the 8ohm 500 watts route vs the 4ohm 800 watt route? My thought being should I go 4ohm for max power understanding I cannno add another cab due to ohm limits or should I go for the 500 watts 8ohm and have the option to run two cabs later at 400 watts each?

I wasn’t sure if the full 800 watts would make any realistic benefit over 500 watts for a single cab. My understanding is that even at half power more speakers would be a large volume increase. It’s not easy to find all this in stock to try out so thanks in advance.

Having more speakers is the fastest way to volume. You can pump more watts into things, but in all likelihood you may be getting all the volume out of a given cabinet way before maximum power is used. If a rig isn’t loud enough, unless we’re talking a super low powered amp is in play, more juice might just break stuff.

 

[OldFlats]

IMO a 4x10 is overkill for small gigs and even most medium sized venues. I've been using a Mark Bass Standard 102HF cab I picked up on clearance and it has moved more than enough air for medium size indoor club/outdoor patio gigs. Still have a 2x12 cab for bigger gigs, which also puts out a ton of sound. If I didn't have the 2x12 I'd pair a 1x15 cab with the 2x10 (both 8 ohm cabs as my amp will drive a 4 ohm load) for the bigger gigs, it would sound killer.