More Watts or More Speakers (Markbass)

[Wasnex]

Your first statement is accurate. However, the rest of your analysis holds true only if the speaker is operating in its linear range (not exceeding Xmax) during all levels of increased power applied, which is very rarely the case, if at all, when running out of, or near max volume. I'm a big proponent of doubling the speaker's cone area as you have a much better chance of getting a more linear SPL/Watt relationship, at least initially. Just adding more power to a given speaker rarely, if at all, gives you a linear return on power applied and only diminishes the tonal quality of the system with increasing power, IMO

Yes my comments are a bit simplified. As speakers are pushed closer to their limit, they experience power compression; meaning at some point you don't gain the full 3dB per doubling of power. Therefore calculated SPL is expected to exceed measured SPL.

Another issue: My understanding is a driver's mechanical power handling varies with how the cab is tuned. AFAIK, it's not unusual for mechanical power handling can be significantly lower than the driver's RMS power rating. Unfortunately some companies seem to rate their bass cabs using the driver's RMS power rating and provide no info on mechanical limits. Off the top of my head, Mesa and Acme are the only two companies that specifically address mechanical power handling in their specs.

The right choice can depend on the situation and how close you are operating to the limits of your gear. Within a certain operating range, increasing power results in superior sound to my ears. Above this range, it's generally better to add a matching cab.

 

[Jim Bergantino]

Yes my comments are a bit simplified. As speakers are pushed closer to their limit, they experience power compression; meaning at some point you don't gain the full 3dB per doubling of power. Therefore calculated SPL is expected to exceed measured SPL.

Another issue: My understanding is a driver's mechanical power handling varies with how the cab is tuned. AFAIK, it's not unusual for mechanical power handling can be significantly lower than the driver's RMS power rating. Unfortunately some companies seem to rate their bass cabs using the driver's RMS power rating and provide no info on mechanical limits. Off the top of my head, Mesa and Acme are the only two companies that specifically address mechanical power handling in their specs.

The right choice can depend on the situation and how close you are operating to the limits of your gear. Within a certain operating range, increasing power results in superior sound to my ears. Above this range, it's generally better to add a matching cab.

This is talkbass. Over simplification of anything is not allowed. Even on the most basic of topics!;-)
And yes you could certainly get in the weeds here with over analysis. My basic point or experience is that if your out of useable volume with a given amp and cab combination, unless the amp is woefully underpowered, you’re best bet to get the most bang for your buck is to double your speakers than to double your power, based on the reasonable assumption you’re probably already past the linear excursion of your current speaker. Unfortunately the reality is most don’t want to carry the speakers they have, never mind doubling them, so they may tend to opt for more power not realizing it’s usually not the same thing. In fact it’s usually not even close and will usually serve to only prove the law of diminishing returns.
Anyway, just thought I would add some complexity to the situation!;-)

 

[Wasnex]

This is talkbass. Over simplification of anything is not allowed. Even on the most basic of topics!;-)
And yes you could certainly get in the weeds here with over analysis. My basic point or experience is that if your out of useable volume with a given amp and cab combination, unless the amp is woefully underpowered, you’re best bet to get the most bang for your buck is to double your speakers than to double your power, based on the reasonable assumption you’re probably already past the linear excursion of your current speaker. Unfortunately the reality is most don’t want to carry the speakers they have, never mind doubling them, so they may tend to opt for more power not realizing it’s usually not the same thing. In fact it’s usually not even close and will usually serve to only prove the law of diminishing returns.
Anyway, just thought I would add some complexity to the situation!;-)

The motive behind my posts is to try and help people make somewhat-informed decisions based on their actual situation. In some circumstances it makes more sense to increase power and in some circumstance it makes more sense to add a cab.

Examples:
If you run an Ampeg V4B reissue into an Ampeg 810E and need more volume, increasing power is most likely the best strategy.

• This is a 100W amp pushing an 800W cab with a 100dB 1W/1m sensitivity rating. Calculated SPL at 100W is 120dB.
  • Run the V4B with a pair of 810Es and we assume the calculated SPL rises to 123dB.
  • Run an SVT at 300W into a single 810E and we assume calculated SPL is almost 125dB.
    • IMHO more power for the win!

If you are running a Bergantino Forte HP 2 into a Bergantino ENXT112 and need more volume, adding a cab is likely the best strategy.

• The HP 2 is rated 600W at 8 ohms but the ENXT112 is only rated 400W. The cab's sensitivity is 98dB 1W/1m and calculated SPL at 400W is 124dB. I assume measured SPL will be a bit lower for the reason we have discussed. Also, I don't know the power level where the cab will exceed it's linear operating range.​
  • We can't increase power because the amp can already provide more power than the cab is rated to handle.
  • If we add a matching cab, the usable power goes up to 800W and sensitivity goes up ~ 3dB. Calculated SPL increases ~6dB to 130dB.
    • IMHO more cabs for the win!

 

[Jens Telemark]

Lots of "Modern day Family Grocery getter" SUVs have 350-400hp and more. (just sayin).

That Said, just because you have "350-400hp" doesn't mean you have to FLOOR It every time you go get groceries.

Same theory for a 1000-Watt Bass amp. You don't HAVE To Dime the Volume Every time you plug in.

Just like a Big HP car, Big Watts Amp, Big Bank Account or a Big D*ck, You don't have to use it ALL at Once.


THAT said, I'll still take the 1000W.

YMMV, and that's ok too.


T$

You were diming 800 generic watts and going to 1000 generic watts solved all your problems? Wait, don't answer that.
(lol I'm just giving you a hard time.)

But horsepower or watts are only part of a system. Throwing more of either at a system whose other components can't use all the power safely and efficiently is a waste of money. With motor vehicles horsepower past a certain point is often useless due to lack of complimentary torque, hideous chassis balance, laughable aerodynamics etc. (which pretty much describes a big block SUV.) With an amp it's the speaker and cabinet.

From my layman's perspective a speaker and cabinet can be viewed as a sub-system that's a largely unalterable component of the Gain/EQ structure of the overall system. I mainly use a Barefaced 1x10 now. When I need to be louder I use the same amp and bring a Berg 1x12. The days of needing snare in my monitor are long past but the example can be scaled up to any volume situation.

Maybe the OP's question was oversimplified. From his post it seems like thinking about the right cab might create more happiness than either more watts or more speakers. Maybe not but it's something to consider.

 

[val9]

So, I’m going to jump on this rig and ask a question. I’m looking at the Markbass Markbass MB58R 104 Pure (or Energy). I love the idea of a 4x10 that I can lift into my car! My amp is a Mesa Subway D-800 (800W @ 4ohms, 400W @ 8ohms). If I get a 4x10 cab, I don’t see myself needing to ever use an additional cab. I’ve been looking to pick up a second hand cab, but every one I’ve seen is 8ohm. Would I be losing out on volume much if I used a single 8ohm cab as opposed to a 4ohm?

 

[Al Kraft]

So, I’m going to jump on this rig and ask a question. I’m looking at the Markbass Markbass MB58R 104 Pure (or Energy). I love the idea of a 4x10 that I can lift into my car! My amp is a Mesa Subway D-800 (800W @ 4ohms, 400W @ 8ohms). If I get a 4x10 cab, I don’t see myself needing to ever use an additional cab. I’ve been looking to pick up a second hand cab, but every one I’ve seen is 8ohm. Would I be losing out on volume much if I used a single 8ohm cab as opposed to a 4ohm?

Required disclaimer: You will get a lot opinions here and all are valid.

I would expect that 400 Watts into the 8 Ohm version (which I have admittedly not played or heard) will be seriously loud and very full sounding for most anything that you'd need just one cab for. While there could be some additional useful output in the 4 Ohm version using a full 800 Watts, I think at that point my preference would be for a second cab to get more speakers working for me as opposed to pushing four 10" drivers to or beyond their limits.

I think a fair number of people would subscribe to this line of thought and is why you may be finding more 8 Ohm than 4 Ohms versions of that cab. Of course the Mesa head can run at 2 Ohms so even f you got a 4 Ohm version you could always add a second later (just be sure to select the 2 Ohm impedance switch position on the rear of the amp).

I could agree with and even make arguments for the 4 Ohm version, but if it matters, my Mesa PH410 is 8 Ohms and I have been happy with that choice using various heads that put out between 165 and 400 Watts at 8 Ohms. Given that your head (and I own one too) is 2 Ohm capable and seriously robust powering an 8 Ohm load you have a lot of choices to pick either 4 or 8 Ohm and still be able to add another cab as well.

 

[SJan3]

Howdy all. I’m looking to upgrade my 30 year old Ampeg B2 4x8 combo bass. It’s been repaired a few times, weighs a ton, and has no DI out.

I think I’ve settled on Markbass for the weight/price. I’m a 45year old School of Rock student picking music back up with the kiddo and wife. The adult band would be playing small gigs. Maybe medium someday.

I went to the local Guitar center and was happy with the tone of a 2x10 Markbass pure and amp. I use an active bass and like it a bit bright and found no issues getting a good sound. Certainly a step up from my old ampeg which is boomy and warm.

Looking at a 4x10 Markbass pure which comes as an 800 watt cab at 4 or 8ohm. Also looking at the Markbass tube 800 which runs 800 watts at 4ohm or 500 watts at 8ohm.

Does it make much volume difference going the 8ohm 500 watts route vs the 4ohm 800 watt route? My thought being should I go 4ohm for max power understanding I cannno add another cab due to ohm limits or should I go for the 500 watts 8ohm and have the option to run two cabs later at 400 watts each?

I wasn’t sure if the full 800 watts would make any realistic benefit over 500 watts for a single cab. My understanding is that even at half power more speakers would be a large volume increase. It’s not easy to find all this in stock to try out so thanks in advance.

In this case, if you go LittleMark tube 800, I'd get the 4x10" 4ohm cabinet.
They're a perfect match and you'll never need more amp or speaker unless you want the fast track to losing your hearing.