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Multiple sized drivers in same cab....good or bad?

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by allenhumble, Jul 10, 2014.


  1. allenhumble

    allenhumble Supporting Member

    Oct 22, 2004
    Acworth GA.
    It was stated to me in a different thread that its a bad idea to have multiple sized drivers in the same cab. Manufactures only do it as a marketing ploy. Several reputable companies have built these type of cabs. Bergantino, Accugroove, and Tecamp are ones that I know of. I know people loved the Ht322 when Bergantino offered it.....but he doesn't have anything like that now.

    If I like what I hear when I llisten to a cab will this change over time? Will a cab with this kind of set up damage its drivers? Amp?
     
  2. JimmyM

    JimmyM Supporting Member

    Apr 11, 2005
    Apopka, FL
    Endorsing: Ampeg Amps, EMG Pickups
    It can be very good if the drivers are properly crossed over into different frequency bands a la Accugroove, Greenboy, Barefaced, Audio Kinesis, etc. And it can range from good to bad in cabs where the drivers aren't properly crossed over, but that's quite unpredictable without hearing it, and to be honest, I've yet to play one that sounds good to me.
     
    CL400Peavey and miner like this.
  3. allenhumble

    allenhumble Supporting Member

    Oct 22, 2004
    Acworth GA.
    The Tecamp virtue cab peaks my interest. It has 2 10"s and 2 12"s that can be played separately or together. I have not played this cab. The sound clips I've heard sound great to me. Is it gimmicky or legit to have a cab capable of this. I know nothing about Tecamp.
     
  4. walterw

    walterw Supportive Fender Gold Supporting Member Commercial User

    Feb 20, 2009
    alpha-music.com
    not speaking to that cab, but i wonder about the point of soundclips for bass cabs, especially ones that purport to be more hi-fi full range; what are you really hearing, besides your own computer speakers? the low end would only be as good as what your own computer sound system (or smartphone earbuds) was capable of; also, the cleaner and more "accurate" the cab, the more it would sound like the bass itself direct, or at least like a direct line from the amp, right?
     
    Fuzzbass likes this.
  5. Running different drivers full range is bad due to:

    Power handling differences
    Sensitivity differences
    Response differences adding to phasing issues causing deconstructive interference.

    Additionally running different drivers in the same air space can cause impedance curves that are unpredictable.
     
    maestrovert likes this.
  6. These designers get around mixing drivers by using crossovers and different air spaces for the drivers.
     
    Fuzzbass and maestrovert like this.
  7. allenhumble

    allenhumble Supporting Member

    Oct 22, 2004
    Acworth GA.
    Would this be apparent immediately or would it develop over time? Would speakers or amp be damaged as a result of this or just tonal issues?
     
  8. allenhumble

    allenhumble Supporting Member

    Oct 22, 2004
    Acworth GA.
    Are these then exceptions? Does the berg and tecamp I referred to not separate airspace?
     
  9. Phasing issues would be noticeable a distance from the stack. Power handling issues may be masked by sensitivity differences.

    I am not sure, would have to know about the construction of the cabs. I know bergantino does use cross overs, so I expect them to used different air spaces as well. I doubt techamp does.
     
  10. allenhumble

    allenhumble Supporting Member

    Oct 22, 2004
    Acworth GA.



    thank you for explaining that to me again. I understand it now.
     
  11. DigitalMan

    DigitalMan Wikipedia often mistakes my opinions for fact Supporting Member

    Nov 30, 2011
    Take that to its logical conclusion and you could never discuss tone that you haven't heard live before.

    My opinion is that you can hear the character of the sound even though it is reproduced. The philosophical dilemma is in the question are speakers supposed to have a sound or or just take sound information and make it louder? To me it depends upon the goals of the designer, the application, and the user.

    One example is when using amplitube you have the option to emulate various cabs. Even though the sound comes out of your reference speakers which by application and design are ideally flat, the character imparted in the attempt to simulate speakers can make each selection sounds quite different.

    My $.02.
     
    maestrovert likes this.
  12. DigitalMan

    DigitalMan Wikipedia often mistakes my opinions for fact Supporting Member

    Nov 30, 2011
    Phasing issues based upon frequency response are in theory perceptible from any distance. It is phase differences from positional issues that change depending upon the location of the listener.
     
  13. walterw

    walterw Supportive Fender Gold Supporting Member Commercial User

    Feb 20, 2009
    alpha-music.com
    i'm mostly just thinking about essentially "clean" cabs and rigs; with overdrive and all that, yeah, the amp clipping and speaker coloration is part of the tone that makes it "to tape", and part of what we'd hear reproduced. (don't know Amplitude, does it do bass cabs besides maybe the typical "SVT" and "fliptop" recreations?)

    it's just how could you tell if one hi-fi bass cab had better low end extension at volume than another, through computer speakers that paled in comparison to either one?
     
  14. DigitalMan

    DigitalMan Wikipedia often mistakes my opinions for fact Supporting Member

    Nov 30, 2011
    As for amplitube, it has a large selection of bass amps and cabs that it reproduces. Coloration is done pretty well - not really sure about clipping. A good analogy is to say if we have two radically different printers and then use the same photocopier to copy a printout from each, you'll get a pretty good idea of the difference, even though the copier has one imaging engine.

    For some of the other things, you're right. You won't be able to tell how deep and at responsiveness at volume.

    It gets back to the philosophy. If I'm looking for flat I might as well buy a high end PA speaker, which from a design goals perspective isn't all that far off from some of the cabs you mention. But if you want to buy something that imparts a tone like Ampeg, Orange, Mesa, etc then IMO the color is apparent even when reproduced through reference speakers. So we agree that flat through flat doesn't provide useful information.
     
    walterw likes this.
  15. Dan Knowlton

    Dan Knowlton Sometimes you're the dog, sometimes the tree Supporting Member

    Aug 12, 2002
    Palm Coast, FL
    The Accugroove Whappo Jr sounded GREAT!
     
  16. Yes, that said the spacing between nodes and troughs will be greater as you move away from the source. Meaning it is more noticeable specially as you let the radiation pattern develop.
     
    maestrovert likes this.
  17. DigitalMan

    DigitalMan Wikipedia often mistakes my opinions for fact Supporting Member

    Nov 30, 2011
    No, sound travels at a constant speed. The package (think of a full cycle in time as a package e.g. the first full second of musical information) of wave forms either in phase or out will travel in unison, and will have the same relationship to each other at every point in space they traverse. At one foot, ten feet, or a hundred feet the package passing through points is exactly the same.

    The problem is when you visualize a still image of the waves and place listening points along those lines imagining that each point represents the same moment in the music.

    Remember that any specific part of the package of waves will travel together and cross every possible listening point with the same phase relationship.

    It's very simple geometry. It's just easy to visualize incorrectly.

    It's also easy to confuse with the phase problems created by any two speakers presenting the same material from two different points in space.
     
  18. The radiation patern of a speaker will be "radial", not a flat plane. Hence you will have greater spacial seperation between constructive, and destructive interference the further away from the source you are.
     
  19. lowendmetal

    lowendmetal

    Jan 30, 2013
    Mesa makes a powerhouse 1000 and 1200 that are mixed. I had the 1200, which was a 15 surrounded by 4 10"s. It got muddy very fast and weighed a Ton, it steered me away from different drivers in a single cab.
     
    CL400Peavey likes this.
  20. DigitalMan

    DigitalMan Wikipedia often mistakes my opinions for fact Supporting Member

    Nov 30, 2011
    Sound travels at the same speed and in straight lines. You may have volume differences based on radial patterns, but you will have zero synchronization differences other than what is caused simply by having two points of origin - and both problems apply to any two speakers, not just speakers with different phase response patterns.

    The horizon for experiencing differences in phase will be a maximum of the spacing between the two speakers.
     

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