Music Theory and Modes.

[MalcolmAmos]

No I'm talking about when the song is in Am I play in F because I use the major scale box - I need to get to the relative major of the Am scale. And as I understand it this is the accepted way of doing that:

A common way to find out a chord’s relative minor is simple to move down 3 semitones. Likewise to find a relative major of a minor chord you would move up 3 semitones.
​

A, B C D E F G A B C D E F G A

Instructions that say to move up or down have always been suspect, perhaps, I've got it wrong so more to the point what is the relative major of the Am scale?

Because I now find this:
Conversely, the letter name of a minor key's relative major is the same letter name as the 3rd scale degree of that minor scale.

So instead of using F I need to be in C major. Is that correct? If so I've got to have a talk with our band director.

Thanks for your help. To make this more interesting, being in F does not sound all that bad....

 

[consectaneus]

Malcolm, at the risk of the blind leading the blind, the Am (A minor) scale is the relative minor of the C Major scale. The minor scale or chord is built off of the 6th degree of the major scale.

Conversely then, the C Maj scale would be the relative major of the Am scale, and is built off of the 3rd scale degree of Am.

 

[SteveCS]

No I'm talking about when the song is in Am I play in F because I use the major scale box - I need to get to the relative major of the Am scale. And as I understand it this is the accepted way of doing that:

A common way to find out a chord’s relative minor is simple to move down 3 semitones. Likewise to find a relative major of a minor chord you would move up 3 semitones.
​

A, B C D E F G A B C D E F G A

Instructions that say to move up or down has always been suspect, perhaps, I've got it wrong so more to the point what is the relative major of the Am scale?

Relative Major of Am is C. They both have the same key signature, i.e. no sharps or flats.

Unfortunately what you show above is backwards.
Relative Minor Key is derived from the 6th Degree of a given Major scale - go DOWN a minor 3rd (or up a M6) from Major Tonic to find the Tonic of the Relative Minor Key.
Relative Major Key is derived from the 3rd degree of a given Natural Minor scale - go UP a minor third from Minor Tonic to find Tonic of Relative Major Key.

To echo @Whousedtoplay , I would recommend trying to break away from box patterns and try to learn the Major scale over multiple octaves and positions - work out how to play the scale up and down one string with shifting, then learn to stop at any position and complete the two octave scale in position. As a starter for 10, in G (> = position shift),

-----------------------------------------------------11-12--
-----------------------------------9-10->-12-14-----------
------------------------9-10-12-----------------------------
-3-5->-7-8->-10-12---------------------------------------

PS - I don't normally write TAB so please forgive any errors

 

[SteveCS]

Steve,
(Sorry for such a long intro.)
Here is the book, "Music Theory for the Music Professional" by Richard Sorce.
https://www.amazon.com/Music-Theory-Professional-Richard-Sorce/dp/1880157209

Here is Richard Sorce's BIO.
View attachment 984324
Here is an excerpt from his book.

View attachment 984325

P.S. Are you OK with the term, "Parallel Minor Scales?"

Are you suggesting there is something in the bits you copied that I don't know? I learned those various forms of minor scale over 30 years ago - in my head and under my fingers. For completeness and for anyone reading, Melodic descending is as for Natural, which along with Harmonic, is the same up and down...
How's about we stop the pissing contest and get back to sensible discussion?

 

[SteveCS]

No, no, and no.
I think you have misunderstood my comment.
It's NOTHING about your immaculately-excellent knowledge of Music Theory/Harmony.

After your excellent point about the RELATIVE Minor/Major KEYS(only), I've started paying more attention to the improper use of the wording, "the relative minor scale" by SERIOUS Musicians, and my latest posting was only to show that I'm not the only one "sinful" user of that "relative minor scale."

Once again, thank you for pointing out my incorrect us of that "relative minor scales".

P.S. Thank you for your participation and correction in this thread.
It's strange that our knowledgeable TB members like Administrator Chris Fitzgerald - a music professor at the University of Louisville - and other skillful forum participants have nothing to say about it.

Sincere apologies for my misunderstanding and resultant snarkiness. Like I said before I do enjoy our discussions. Yes, some folks are notable by their absence... We must be doing something right, huh?

 

[Lownote38]

Not really - you are talking about diatonic harmonisation and arpeggii of the resultant chords, not modes. The key is still G.

drool Chords imply scales. If you add all possible extensions to a chord (implied), and then rearrange the notes, you get a scale, or most likely a mode!

 

[SteveCS]

drool Chords imply scales. If you add all possible extensions to a chord (implied), and then rearrange the notes, you get a scale, or most likely a mode!

If you rearrange the notes of a chord you get an inversion, not a scale. Sure if you carry on adding diatonic thirds you get all the notes in the key, but that will just sound like someone with a really big arse sat on the keyboard!
To your earlier point, playing 1,3,5 of an Am chord in G does not require you to know Dorian mode and pick 1,3,5 from it. You are harmonising the ii of the Major key, which is not Dorian. Modes are special. They are neither scales nor keys. The notes have internal melodic relationships and roles that do not relate the keys. For example, in G, even if you play Am, the dominant of the key is still D. In true A Dorian music, the dominant is E.

 

[Lownote38]

If you rearrange the notes of a chord you get an inversion, not a scale. Sure if you carry on adding diatonic thirds you get all the notes in the key, but that will just sound like someone with a really big arse sat on the keyboard!
To your earlier point, playing 1,3,5 of an Am chord in G does not require you to know Dorian mode and pick 1,3,5 from it. You are harmonising the ii of the Major key, which is not Dorian. Modes are special. They are neither scales nor keys. The notes have internal melodic relationships and roles that do not relate the keys. For example, in G, even if you play Am, the dominant of the key is still D. In true A Dorian music, the dominant is E.

I give up. I completely give up, man. Ever heard a 13 chord? It can have every note of a scale in it, but inverted in such a way that it sounds beautiful and nothing like what you described, but never mind. You just keep on playing everything like it has one major scale. Try doing that with In Memory Of Elizabeth Reed by the Allman Bros. Dorian through and through. Again, never mind. I completely give up.

 

[consectaneus]

The way mode names are used today may be a misnomer (or colloquialism as Steve said) but I think it may be here to stay. I would venture to say that most people would equate the Ionian mode with the major scale, and the scale built off the second degree of that scale is the Doran mode, third Phrygian, etc...and that there are corresponding diatonic chords built off of (usually every other) scale degree of these "modes", and that this is the basis for notating chord progressions as ii-V-I (for ex.). It may be a mish mash of terminology, but seems to work as long as there is general agreement about what is meant by these terms.

 

[consectaneus]

This all seems very Zen like...like a distinction without a difference. I think I can conceive of the idea of a mode as having no starting or ending point, but for practical purposes, it only makes musical sense to me to think of a seven note scale with a tonic and fixed pattern of intervals. I would be happy doing without the word mode in favor of "scale" and "key", but the Greek nomenclature seems to have stuck, and it works for me. For example, if Lownote38 says an Allman Brothers tune falls within the Dorian mode or scale, I still know what he means.

 

[MalcolmAmos]

This is # 97. Only three more to go and another mode string reached 100.

 

[SteveCS]

I give up. I completely give up, man. Ever heard a 13 chord? It can have every note of a scale in it, but inverted in such a way that it sounds beautiful and nothing like what you described, but never mind. You just keep on playing everything like it has one major scale. Try doing that with In Memory Of Elizabeth Reed by the Allman Bros. Dorian through and through. Again, never mind. I completely give up.

Agree on the 13 - I was being facetious.
As for playing everything like it's one major scale, nothing could be further from the truth. There are plenty that see them that way. Read my posts - I'm trying to emphasise that the sound of modes (be that the modern or traditional take) is wholly independent of the Major tonality/scale/key/call it what you like. I think you are making the same point with the Allman reference.

 

[Clef_de_fa]

This all seems very Zen like...like a distinction without a difference. I think I can conceive of the idea of a mode as having no starting or ending point, but for practical purposes, it only makes musical sense to me to think of a seven note scale with a tonic and fixed pattern of intervals. I would be happy doing without the word mode in favor of "scale" and "key", but the Greek nomenclature seems to have stuck, and it works for me. For example, if Lownote38 says an Allman Brothers tune falls within the Dorian mode or scale, I still know what he means.

Personnaly I prefer to use mode instead of major/minor relation as those have mode names and just end up all meaning the exact same thing...

Maybe one day we will have fixed terminology that everyone will understand because right now, each part of the world use something different and many many many people misuse the existing terminology

 

[mambo4]

Don't forget the most common use of modes: TB thread filler.

 

[Lownote38]

Agree on the 13 - I was being facetious.
As for playing everything like it's one major scale, nothing could be further from the truth. There are plenty that see them that way. Read my posts - I'm trying to emphasise that the sound of modes (be that the modern or traditional take) is wholly independent of the Major tonality/scale/key/call it what you like. I think you are making the same point with the Allman reference.

Okay. I can go with that. I see what you're saying now. I think we might be saying the same thing.

 

[consectaneus]

I believe the penny has dropped (i.e. I finally understand) the difference between a mode and scale and how they are related.

Question....

1. The I chord (which of course contains the third) is the tonal centre, and is therefore the
most important chord (faithfulness to the tonic). It will usually open the song (first chord
used), and will always end it (last chord used). In true modal composition this is a strict
rule.
Check

2. The characteristic modal note will be used extensively, in the melody AND in the
harmony, to help establish the distinctive mood of the mode. This means that the chords
containing the characteristic modal note will be favored.
I'm not sure what "the characteristic modal note" means. If the tune is in the key of C, there will be lots of C notes in the melody and chords? Is the writer referring to a tonal center?

3. Modal melodies are usually diatonic to the mode.
Understood

4. All the chord sequences and cadences typical of the corresponding major scale (Ionian
mode) must be avoided at all costs, because they convey the feeling of the major scale,
and will destroy the modal feel."
I have no idea what this last point means.

Can someone explain using a real world example (reference tune) that shows these principles in action? Preferably in your own words?

 

[consectaneus]

I see. Somewhere I lost the point that this is relative to major/minor. If for instance one is playing from the C Ionian mode and wants to create a Dm sound by playing off of the second degree (D Dorian in this case), the V7 to I of the "parent" Ionian mode should be avoided because it suggests a dominant to tonic major resolution which defeats the minor sound.

 

[SteveCS]

I see. Somewhere I lost the point that this is relative to major/minor. If for instance one is playing from the C Ionian mode and wants to create a Dm sound by playing off of the second degree (D Dorian in this case), the V7 to I of the "parent" Ionian mode should be avoided because it suggests a dominant to tonic major resolution which defeats the minor sound.

No, because modality takes time to establish - remember it's roots are in monophonic melody, so, other than those created by the thick slow reverberation of the abbeys and churches, the use of chords to set feel was not done. These days tonality and modality sit quite comfortably side by side, so a modal interlude in a tonal peice - why not, just don't resolve to G too early and give the mode space to breathe.
Contrast Greensleeves with Scarborough Fair...

 

[Clef_de_fa]

Agree.
Let's continue.
Do you agree with the following statement?
(Otherwise, there is no need to say anything else.)
From Gil Goldstein's - Jazz Composer's Companion

View attachment 984800

From "All About Music Theory".
View attachment 984801
Just an interesting note from the same book.
View attachment 984805

Here is the last statement that I agree with.
View attachment 984809

Yeah ?

 

[mambo4]

4. All the chord sequences and cadences typical of the corresponding major scale (Ionian
mode) must be avoided at all costs, because they convey the feeling of the major scale,
and will destroy the modal feel."
I have no idea what this last point means.

Can someone explain using a real world example (reference tune) that shows these principles in action? Preferably in your own words?

Lets take an example C major and its mode D Dorian.
Same set of notes. harmonized it produces the same family of chords.
arranged in certain ways these chords sound more like C major (particularly G7 to C maj, the V-I cadence in C major)
arranged in certain other ways they sound more like D Dorian (particularly A min to D min , a v - i cadence in D minor)
If you want to concoct a dorian tune avoid the first category of chord progressions