musical notation questions

[Fredrik E. Nilsen]

But this isn't always true. In fact it's more often not true. Here's why…
(cut)
The instances you're talking about—where the 8th note would get the beat on a compound meter—do indeed happen, but they are exceptions to the rule.

Well, I agree with your point, and you're right if we're talking about modern music (meaning from 1900 or so). In classical music it's quite common with 6/8, 9/8 etc. and one beat per 8th.

 

[stringtapper]

Well, I agree with your point, and you're right if we're talking about modern music (meaning from 1900 or so). In classical music it's quite common with 6/8, 9/8 etc. and one beat per 8th.

I'm including classical music in my discussion, as that's actually my main area of study.

But yes, the exceptions do happen more often in "classical" repertory. I'm thinking of a particular piece for wind ensemble by Milhaud that is written in 6/8 with a very slow tempo and conducted as if it's in 6/4.

It's still an exception in the context of general metric theory.

 

[Rip Van Dan]

But this isn't always true. In fact it's more often not true. Here's why…

6/8 is a compound meter. What that means is that the beat is subdivided not into a group of two, but rather a group of three. Thus 6/8 is defined as a duple compound meter, which means that it has two beats (dotted quarters) with each beat subdivided into three (8th notes). This is also true for other compound meters such as 9/8 (triple compound) and 12/8 (quadruple compound).

So in terms of how many beats you have and how one would conduct the meter you can look at it like this:

2/4 : 6/8 = duple meter
3/4 : 9/8 = triple meter
4/4 : 12/8 = quadruple meter

In other words you can use the same conducting pattern for 6/8 that you use for 2/4, since they are both duple meters (have two beats).

The instances you're talking about—where the 8th note would get the beat on a compound meter—do indeed happen, but they are exceptions to the rule.

The instances where the 8th note would properly get the beat would be in the cases of non-compound meters with '8' in the metric denominator. So meters like 2/8, 3/8, and 4/8.

Although they may be the "exception to the rule" as you see, the composer didn't write it in 2/4, 3/4, or 4/4. Just because it's a more difficult pattern to direct it doesn't mean that the quarter note gets fewer beats than the time signature says. The time signature is really very straightforward in its specification of what note gets one beat and how many beats there are to a measure regardless how you try to deal with conducting patterns. The whole reason for simplified conducting patterns is because it is ungainly to conduct the pattern properly at the speed of the music. That just changes how you treat it, not what it inherently is.

A simple 3/4 conducting pattern can also be simplified into the same stroke as a 2/4 pattern by treating each measure of the 3/4 (or 3/8 for that matter) as a triplet inside a larger measure. The problem with that is that you are no longer conducting the downbeat on both measures and that can make a big difference in the character of the music. All of these "shortcuts" can be explained and compensated for, but it doesn't change the basic info in the time signature from what it is written as into what you wish it would be. Only the composer can do that and if you are not the compose, you're out of luck.

And yes, I agree that 2/8, 3/8, and 4/8 are normally directed without simplifying the pattern. And that really goes to the point I was trying to make earlier, i.e. the quarter note doesn't always get one beat. In the cases of 2/8, 3/8, and 4/8, the quarter note would get two beats.

That is the point that I was trying to get across. Yes most of the time a quarter note gets one beat, but not always. Pay attention to the time signature of the music to find out. By far and away, the quarter note commonly does get one beat. It would not be called "Common Time" and represented by a big "C:" in the time signature if it wasn't the common way to do it. But we don't always do things "the common way".

 

[Fredrik E. Nilsen]

And yes, I agree that 2/8, 3/8, and 4/8 are normally directed without simplifying the pattern. And that really goes to the point I was trying to make earlier, i.e. the quarter note doesn't always get one beat. In the cases of 2/8, 3/8, and 4/8, the quarter note would get two beats.

That is the point that I was trying to get across. Yes most of the time a quarter note gets one beat, but not always. Pay attention to the time signature of the music to find out. By far and away, the quarter note commonly does get one beat. It would not be called "Common Time" and represented by a big "C:" in the time signature if it wasn't the common way to do it. But we don't always do things "the common way".

Your point had probably been clearer if you used 3/8 as an example. Now it's just more confusing. In modern music 6/8 has two beats in most cases. It is felt like two beats, it is counted as two beats, conducted as two beats. In most cases.

 

[Fredrik E. Nilsen]

This is a great idea, and it can also be achieved in finger style by alternating fingers. Example is pointer/first finger gets the downbeats and second/middle finger gets the up beats.

I often advice students to think like Rocco if there are complex 16th rhythms. Imagine you're playing all 16 16ths in a bar. You can even do it, as a practice. Mute the strings, and only un-mute the ones that should be heard. Start with the first in the bar. Then the first of all beats. Then all sorts of variation. Write a lot of different variations, listen to them, read them, play them.

 

[BaileyMan]

If you dive into this 8ths and dottet quarters bussiness, you'll be plaing these super cool afro-cuban rhythms in no time, so you might as well start right now. There's awesome book that covers it all: https://www.amazon.com/Latin-Bass-Book-Oscar-Stagnaro/dp/1883217113

I also just started on this book. It's great! Really beautifully written lines that are relatively simple but with really nice movement. It's been really good for my sight reading and helping me improve at navigating the fret board without looking. Definitely worthwhile investment.

 

[IamGroot]

It is a small world! I am sitting in a hotel room and working the James Jamerson book by Dr. Licks, Standing in the Shadows of Motown, for sight reading exercise. It is the master class for reading rhythms. Before i went to sleep, i read a good portion of the book just laying in bed without bass or metronome, sight reading in my head.

The first couple of posts about counting are dead on. You want to master this skill totally. You should also learn to recognize the rhythmic elements on sight.

As a bass player, you should also learn to feel the pocket. Start with qtr notes, then 8th notes. By feel, I mean you intuitively know where you are placing every note in a bar. I posted a sight reading youtube video on this earlier. You should be able to sing or tap the rhythm on sight.

When you can do this comfortably, STOP COUNTING. Feel the pocket, dont count it. Feel the groove. Its essential to being a good bass player.

I havent been able to place 16th notes independently. Instead, i place them by feel within the qtr note beat.

If i have trouble reading a part, i revert back to counting.

Best of luck. Sight reading 16ths doesnt happen overnight and doing it by feel takes a while. I still practice it to help my groove as well as sight reading.

 

[IamGroot]

Seconding what Frederick Nilsen said, sightread in tbe bigger context. You want to be able to be reading a bar ahead of where you are playing, although i struggle with this sometimes.
Sitsom and Oscar Stagnaro are the go to reading for me.

 

[IamGroot]

https://www.amazon.com/Logical-Approach-Rhythmic-Notation-1/dp/B001AH31CQ

 

[dreamadream99]

3/8, 3/4, 3/2, are not examples of counting, they are examples of notating triple meter. Any one of them could be used to notate something in triple meter, at any tempo. Listening to a song doesn't reveal its time signature. Looking at the composer's part would.

 

[Rip Van Dan]

Your point had probably been clearer if you used 3/8 as an example. Now it's just more confusing. In modern music 6/8 has two beats in most cases. It is felt like two beats, it is counted as two beats, conducted as two beats. In most cases.

It might have been more clear to use 3/8 but I don't know how much clearer I can make the point that a quarter note doesn't always get one beat (which was the crux of the OP's question), and that the time signature defines what note gets one beat. I have reiterated that in every message, including the first one.

"in most cases" isn't in every case and you can't say my statements are wrong because they are not. Yes conductors may decide to use conducting pattern shortcuts to deal with them but that doesn't change the time signature, which defines how many beats to a measure and what note gets one beat.

I think you're just to being argumentative at this point and we could go on and on with a discussion that started to be interesting, but at this point it's pretty well diverted from the poor OP's original question. So I will back out of the discussion at this point and let you continue arguing with yourself and perhaps the OP can get some better insight from others.

 

[Nickweissmusic]

Agreed. Most people find it easier to read bar two than bar one. It's actually quite common in my style of writing (jazz, big band).
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I personally would never write or want to see/sightread that second measure unless it's a recurring phrase or theme. Quarter half quarter is easier on the eyes and fairly common in ballads so a bit more acceptable, but my jazz bass and theory teacher was the mid-barline guy, would never have let the eighth quarter quarter quarter eigth fly in a complex chart. I'm not even going to say I disagree with you philosophically, it's just not how I was taught, and I like keeping things consistent in my ocd brain. I also refuse to write or teach students to used half diminished symbols. Beyond being outdated, It doesn't function as a diminished family chord, it functions as a minor 7th chord, that happens to have a flat 5. Music's pretty good for ocd people; you can pretty much conform to your own set of conventions.

 

[consectaneus]

Personally, I don't mind any direction this thread takes. My question was basically answered in the second post. The rest has been interesting and helpful even though much of it is over my head.

 

[Nickweissmusic]

Your point had probably been clearer if you used 3/8 as an example. Now it's just more confusing. In modern music 6/8 has two beats in most cases. It is felt like two beats, it is counted as two beats, conducted as two beats. In most cases.

6/8, 12/8 connote a specific feel, unless the composer is just trying to be difficult. They're 2 or 4 beats broken into triplets. The harmonic rhythm dictates which is appropriate, and/or the drum pattern in pop music. "How many quarter notes" is basically an irrelevant question in those cases, since the answer doesn't help you understand the song. Yes, concretely, there are 3 quarter notes in a bar of 6/8, which will help you pass 3rd grade math, but has little bearing in the world of music. Notation isn't intended to make music more difficult, although some folks like to show off.

 

[Fredrik E. Nilsen]

I personally would never write or want to see/sightread that second measure unless it's a recurring phrase or theme. Quarter half quarter is easier on the eyes and fairly common in ballads so a bit more acceptable, but my jazz bass and theory teacher was the mid-barline guy, would never have let the eighth quarter quarter quarter eigth fly in a complex chart. I'm not even going to say I disagree with you philosophically, it's just not how I was taught, and I like keeping things consistent in my ocd brain. I also refuse to write or teach students to used half diminished symbols. Beyond being outdated, It doesn't function as a diminished family chord, it functions as a minor 7th chord, that happens to have a flat 5. Music's pretty good for ocd people; you can pretty much conform to your own set of conventions.

If it was for me, I agree. The right thing is the first bar, and it shouldn't be difficult to read. But, then we have reality. I write a lot for amateur big bands and horn sections (and concert band), and in my experience, the second bar is more often played correctly. And, regarding "half dimished", I'm totally with you.

 

[Fredrik E. Nilsen]

6/8, 12/8 connote a specific feel, unless the composer is just trying to be difficult. They're 2 or 4 beats broken into triplets. The harmonic rhythm dictates which is appropriate, and/or the drum pattern in pop music. "How many quarter notes" is basically an irrelevant question in those cases, since the answer doesn't help you understand the song. Yes, concretely, there are 3 quarter notes in a bar of 6/8, which will help you pass 3rd grade math, but has little bearing in the world of music. Notation isn't intended to make music more difficult, although some folks like to show off.

Exactly.

 

[Fredrik E. Nilsen]

"in most cases" isn't in every case and you can't say my statements are wrong because they are not.

For the record: I didn't say your statements were wrong, I said your point (which I earlier have supported) would have been clearer if you chose a different example.

 

[dreamadream99]

My question was basically answered in the second post. The rest has been interesting and helpful even though much of it is over my head.

You may have just perfectly encapsulated the typical TalkBass experience.

 

[IamGroot]

Way over my head too.

I will say there are better and worse ways to notate music as far as making my life easier to sightread.

Sitsom's notstion is perfect. No problem with Fredrick Nilsen' example either.
Then I go over to Orchestral excerpts and feel like a moron. But that is a different thread.

 

[dreamadream99]

OK, but you need/want to transcribe it. What would you do?

You pick one.
All I'm saying is, three guys listen to a triple meter song. One transcribes it in 3/4, another in 3/2, and another in 3/8. All of them are viable. You can even write it in 3/16 or 3/1 if you want. They are all examples of triple meter.