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Musical Theory VS Musical Ear

SurferJoe46

SurferJoe46

Feb 22, 2010
9,057
763
The Bitterroot Mounts, Montana
#1
In between studio takes yesterday, I was (eek!) watching a RUSH video and I found that I could follow his roots and boxes pretty well - I've never done that with RUSH - I promise!

But I want to know if I need to study more musical theory or just 'ear-it-out' to play him note for note.

Up front I want to say that I don't really like RUSH but I think Geddy Lee is a really talented person even if he sings like Yoko Ono and looks like the Wicked Witch of The West. I still appreciate talent though.

Will learning Major Phrygians and Melodic Minor Lydian Dominants make me a better player?

Does anybody really know all those gazillians of forms?
 
#5
chump stain said:
Learning theory helped me learn songs quicker. Learn everything you can.
Click to expand...

Is it then easier since you can tell what the root form of the music is being played at that moment and do you really know all those hundreds of forms?

I'm checking a chart right here and wonder if anyone can really tell if they are needing to play a Maj II Dorian or a Major VI Aeolian in a certain place in the music or is it all a big guess?

I mean - c'mon - there's only a C# to a D difference on the A string between the two and if you aren't hitting that one note, how can you tell which form you are in at the moment?

Somehow I am missing an important part of the puzzle here.

I really want to get this under my belt, but at 64+ years and being somewhat ill and I may not see another 2 years at most, is it all worth it or should I just have whatever fun I can with the time I have left?
 
#6
Just take it one day at a time, learn a bit each day. And try to be better than the day before.
There is a thread here on TB, where a bunch of folks are going to go through a method book together, and discuss and help each other out. I would suggest getting in on the fun.
 
#9
SurferJoe46 said:
Is it then easier since you can tell what the root form of the music is being played at that moment and do you really know all those hundreds of forms?

I'm checking a chart right here and wonder if anyone can really tell if they are needing to play a Maj II Dorian or a Major VI Aeolian in a certain place in the music or is it all a big guess?

I mean - c'mon - there's only a C# to a D difference on the A string between the two and if you aren't hitting that one note, how can you tell which form you are in at the moment?

Somehow I am missing an important part of the puzzle here.

I really want to get this under my belt, but at 64+ years and being somewhat ill and I may not see another 2 years at most, is it all worth it or should I just have whatever fun I can with the time I have left?
Click to expand...

The best advice I could give, that really helped me out is, learn the modes. There's really only 7 scales. Remembering them is kind of like remembering 7 phone numbers. And when you're plucking out a tune by ear, the chords played are either major or minor. If the song is in the key of G, and it goes from G to D, G would be Ionian, and D would be Mixolydian. The notes contained in those scales would be the most likely notes that are in the song you're figuring out.

This is a great video lesson by Billy Sheehan, who simplifies things even more. Check it out it's good.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngRicIFHzAI&feature=related
 
#11
Theory + Ear Training makes you a better bass player AND a better musician.

Theory will:

1) Help you learn songs faster
2) Make you a more effective songwriter
3) Help you communicate better with other musicians

To learn theory - and especially how it applies to being a bass player - the best thing I could have done is find the right teacher. A REAL working bass player, not a guitarist doubling as a bass teacher.
 
#12
SurferJoe46 said:
In between studio takes yesterday, I was (eek!) watching a RUSH video and I found that I could follow his roots and boxes pretty well - I've never done that with RUSH - I promise!

But I want to know if I need to study more musical theory or just 'ear-it-out' to play him note for note.

Up front I want to say that I don't really like RUSH but I think Geddy Lee is a really talented person even if he sings like Yoko Ono and looks like the Wicked Witch of The North. I still appreciate talent though.

Will learning Major Phrygians and Melodic Minor Lydian Dominants make me a better player?

Does anybody really know all those gazillians of forms?
Click to expand...

Coltrane had the last word on the theory vs. ear debate. Loosely paraphrased, it goes like this: practice all that stuff. And when it is time to start playing, forget it all and just play what you feel.
 
#14
S. Katz said:
Coltrane had the last word on the theory vs. ear debate. Loosely paraphrased, it goes like this: practice all that stuff. And when it is time to start playing, forget it all and just play what you feel.
Click to expand...
I'm not really thinking about theory when I'm playing. Really in my mind I'm thinking about the root, and if it's a major or minor chord, and only if something like a dominant 7, or 2 or 9 (for example) are in there am I thinking about it. It's really hard to explain, I'm not really the best person to be giving advice. But again the modes unlocked the mysteries of the fretboard (for me) and of course there is more to bass then just modes. But it's definitely a good springboard to get you started.

And to simplify things even more study triads. Root, third (flat for minor) and the fifth.
 
#15
You shouldn't be thinking at all, if you're thinking, you're not listening.

To the OP - as my teacher is fond of saying, when Itzak Perlman or Yo Yo Ma are playing something that was written 200+ years ago, they aren't just putting their fingers down on some geographic location that corresponds to a dot on a page. They are HEARING, deeply, every single note they play. Theory is not some magic key that is going to suddenly make you a better musician. It's PART of what you should be working on - understanding what's going on musically. But the other two "legs" of the tripod are hearing with clarity and physical approach. ear training and technique. And what I mean about technique isn't slapping or any "tricks", I mean developing a relaxed, tension free physical approach to the instrument so that you can get what's in your head out into the air without the instrument acting as an obstacle.

Now YOU are the only person that can decide how deep you want to get into music. But if you want to get to a place where you can listen to someone play and have it make as much sense as reading these words, then it's going to take more than "more musical theory or ear-it-out". You need to work on a formal approach to ear training, you need to work on understanding functional harmony. And then it's not memorizing " a gazillion forms". You HEAR it. It MEANS something, and it's HERE on your instrument. No memorizing, no thinking, no patterns. Music.
 
#18
Studying theory, and especially as it applies to walking bass can do wonders for your playing.

I don't even like walking bass all that much but I've been playing the same 72 bars of walking over and over again, and the more I do it, the more things fall into place.

My reading is better, my technique is better, my rock lines are better, my funk lines are better. I can play things I think of so much quicker now. It's like I've found a new freedom on the bass, along with a new understanding.

Yes, I"m *really* looking forward to the next tune, but right now I'm mining this one for gold.

It's work, but it's worth it!

btw I'm older than you are.
 
#20
rosanne said:
It's work, but it's worth it!

btw I'm older than you are.
Click to expand...

Yeah - but (there's always a 'but' ain't there?)------

----I got Agent-Orange'd in VietNam and my lungs are shot and I have severe bone disease + a non-repairable fractured pelvis, spinal compressive fracture, stenosis and resulting nerve damage and - well it goes on and on. Seven eye surgeries in one eye and five in the other, detached retinas and only have macular vision in the right eye.

If I thought I'd last this long I'd have taken better care of myself when I was younger.

If I have to carry or lift anything over 5 lbs, I have to shuck clothing to compensate. That makes playing a 9 lb bass kinda interesting. And drafty.
 

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