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Musical Theory VS Musical Ear

#41
chump stain said:
I see the modes as shapes as well. Like you say, little boxes. I had a chart I made years ago with the modes, and their shapes as how they look on a bass fretboard. It's a really good visual tool that I wish I could post here. I'll look tonight, I thought I had a digital version at sometime. But that Sheehan video I posted, had some of those same shapes, (the boxes with tails) :) if you watch it again, pause the video when it's showing the shapes at the bottom of the screen. That will show you some scales to get you started.
Click to expand...

Like these? ->

Major.png


Melodic%20Minor.png


Minor%20Pentatonic.png


Bebop%20Dominant.png
 
#43
chump stain said:
I see the modes as shapes as well. Like you say, little boxes. I had a chart I made years ago with the modes, and their shapes as how they look on a bass fretboard. It's a really good visual tool that I wish I could post here. I'll look tonight, I thought I had a digital version at sometime. But that Sheehan video I posted, had some of those same shapes, (the boxes with tails) :) if you watch it again, pause the video when it's showing the shapes at the bottom of the screen. That will show you some scales to get you started.
Click to expand...

I think it's important to note that learning short-cuts (boxes, patterns, etc.) are great ways to cut through learning pop songs - and if the goal is to streamline learning pop songs, learning to conceptualize theory in these 'short-cut' ways can be useful - a means to an end.

But if your goal is to become more musically adept - to dig deeper into the academic side of music, these short-cuts can cloud and even obscure their function and purpose. The flips side of using patterns, tricks and short-cuts is to actually learn what's going on from a real-deal theoretical angle - and get savvy enough with theory that those patterns become irrelevant and you are actually thinking in terms of what's really going on in the song - and not just memorizing how it was played.

But again - when simply trying to get yet another pop song under your fingers so you can jam it with friends and at gigs - these patterns and theoretical analogs can be useful.
 
#44
tZer said:
I think it's important to note that learning short-cuts (boxes, patterns, etc.) are great ways to cut through learning pop songs - and if the goal is to streamline learning pop songs, learning to conceptualize theory in these 'short-cut' ways can be useful - a means to an end.

But if your goal is to become more musically adept - to dig deeper into the academic side of music, these short-cuts can cloud and even obscure their function and purpose. The flips side of using patterns, tricks and short-cuts is to actually learn what's going on from a real-deal theoretical angle - and get savvy enough with theory that those patterns become irrelevant and you are actually thinking in terms of what's really going on in the song - and not just memorizing how it was played.

But again - when simply trying to get yet another pop song under your fingers so you can jam it with friends and at gigs - these patterns and theoretical analogs can be useful.
Click to expand...


Yes. Plus, while at first they just might be shapes, you'll also start to know what those intervals are going to sound like before you play them, by playing them. So I definetly encourage you to use those cheat sheat shapes to get familure with how those shapes sound.
 
#45
SurferJoe46 said:
Like these? ->

Major.png


Melodic%20Minor.png


Minor%20Pentatonic.png


Bebop%20Dominant.png
Click to expand...


Yes, That's a lot like the stuff I had. I'm going to make a copy for myself. Thanks for finding that! This is a great tool, practice those shapes, make it musical, not just running through a scale. Think of Ionain as the key scale of a song in a major key. And Aoeonian as the primary scale of a minor key song. So in a minor key, mode 6 = mode 1. Make sense?
 
#46
chump stain said:
Yes, That's a lot like the stuff I had. I'm going to make a copy for myself. Thanks for finding that! This is a great tool, practice those shapes, make it musical, not just running through a scale. Think of Ionain as the key scale of a song in a major key. And Aoeonian as the primary scale of a minor key song. So in a minor key, mode 6 = mode 1. Make sense?
Click to expand...

I think I have a dozen more or so. If you like I can post them or give you the link to my folder on the internet where I stored them - safe from a hard drive crash (again).

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
 
#47
chump stain said:
This is a great tool, practice those shapes, make it musical, not just running through a scale. Think of Ionain as the key scale of a song in a major key. And Aoeonian as the primary scale of a minor key song. So in a minor key, mode 6 = mode 1. Make sense?
Click to expand...

Here's where the wheels fall off for me.

When I look at those modes, I don't actually see a chord in them .

I am thinking in a guitar way
b%20chord.png


--- that if they were a chord, then they'd have to be shaped like a chord.
 
#49
I'm at work right now, but when I get home I'll modify that chart you posted and re-post it, with the shapes I'm talking about (root, third, fifth, octave) highlighted. The cool thing is, those notes (shapes) can be used for any chord, just move the third (flat for minor) and it's the same no matter the chord.

If the chord is major, I like to use my middle finger to play the root, index finger to play the third (up one string from root), and my pinky to play the fifth (3 frets up from third), and pinky to play the octave (next string down, under the fifth). Using one fret per finger.
 
#51
attachment.jpg


Here's a good study. Notice that if you start a major arpeggio, or decide to build an instresting line off of a major chord, start with your middle finger on the root (1), and using the one finger per fret rule, notice how the 1,3,5, and octave are all in one posistion. Middle finger 1 (root), index finger 3, pinky 5, pinky octave. There's your chord, broken into pieces. And even though color tones like 2, 4, and 6 move around with the different modes, those chord tones stay virtually in the same posistion.

Same thing can be done for a minor chord. Except use your index for the root, and all the other essential intervals will be available to you in one posistion.
 

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#52
chump stain said:
The notes that make a chord are root, third (flat for minor), fifth, and octave. On bass, you're not playing a chord, you're usually playing a line. So you can build your line on the triad (1,3,5) if the chord has a number in it like a 4, add the 4th to your line. Making any sense?
Click to expand...

I was just trying to see where the form of the guitar chord appears on the 4 strings. I think it's going to go 'ding' after a while, but I really don't see all those other notes making a lot of sense yet.

Tomorrow (Tuesday) I am going to GC to see if they have a bass book with some of the modes in it.

What I remember from guitar - maybe, f'rinstance - is to make a Major into a Bb7th you add the 7th note up from the root assignment of the chord - right?

So taking a Bb to make it a 7th, just add the 7th note from the Bb to it and that's the F - right?

EG: Since a Bb=an A#

the progression is as follows if I have it right :::

(1)Bb - (2)C - (3)C# - (4)D - (5)D# - (6)E - (7)F

so its going UP the scale to the 7th adds a F
 
#53
No.
The Key Signature tells you what notes have sharps in them. For example, you don't have C, and C# in the same key. Only one letter name per key. The key of E has four sharps. You can easily recognize key signatures in music by the number of sharps. The Key of E is E,F#,G#A,B,C#,D#. So if E=1, the major 7 would be D#.

The same with the Bb example you cited. The key of Bb has two flats and is Bb,C,D,Eb,F,G,A. If Bb=1, the major 7 is A.
 
#54
Another thing about how 7 is written. E7 means E major chord, with a flat 7 (D). If that sounds confusing, it means it's a dominant 7. That note is a whole step below the root, which gives an anticipation type feel to the music. It works great for moving, or leading the music someplace. If the Chord is Emaj7 then it plays the seventh interval from the root, which is D#. If the 7 is not flat, it will have "maj" written before it.

I hope this isn't too much for you.
 
#55
Ewww - brain freeze!

So - you can't just count UP the keys of a piano including all the sharps for the 7,9 or 11 by just raising the root that many steps?

Now I lost not only the wheels, but the axles too.

I've got a GC run in the AM - about 60+ miles from here and I need a clear head to drive those mountain roads.

Music theory is gonna mess with me keeping it between the white line and the 2,000 foot drop-offs.

I truly want to continue this, but I need some sleep - old age calls.

Thanks so far.
 
#56
SurferJoe46 said:
Ewww - brain freeze!

So - you can't just count UP the keys of a piano including all the sharps for the 7,9 or 11 by just raising the root that many steps?

Now I lost not only the wheels, but the axles too.

I've got a GC run in the AM - about 60+ miles from here and I need a clear head to drive those mountain roads.

Music theory is gonna mess with me keeping it between the white line and the 2,000 foot drop-offs.

I truly want to continue this, but I need some sleep - old age calls.

Thanks so far.
Click to expand...
you're trying to absorb everything all at once, and tb is a good place to get overloaded ;) just concentrate on learning one thing at a time. and keep it between the lines!
 
#60
Is you are really interested in theory - not just short-cuts to learning pop songs, then hit your local school music store and pick up an intro to theory book. Do yourself a huge favor and study theory at a piano instead of a bass or guitar simply because the piano lays out the concept of steps in a literal linear fashion thus making the concept of 3rd, 5ths, etc... much more clear.

Learning theory is about learning music - not an instrument - so it doesn't matter what instrument you use to learn theory OTHER than the fact that piano makes it clearer than any other instrument.

As you learn the basics of theory - how scales are constructed and the various mini-constructs that are derived from these scales, you can begin to see how these things function to make music and apply your new understanding of MUSIC to your bass.

The thread started off asking about ways to understand the 'boxes' and 'patterns' of another musician in an effort to demystify what he was playing. This is not "theory" - this is short-cutting learning songs. Nothing wrong with that - it all works - but since the discussion has spun into theory and people are starting to pop more 'short-cuts' I think it's very important to keep these things in perspective. The things posted here so far, while connected to theory, are still only short-cuts.

Define your goal, SurferJoe46 - and remember, there's no right or wrong goal - no judgment - if you want to learn what Geddy's doing and you're looking for ways to understand the boxes and patterns he's using - that perfectly fine. Just don't confuse the short-cuts being offered as a good way to approach learning music theory. There really is no short-cut for that. You need to start with the basics, learn them and follow their evolution through the more complex aspects (like modes, et al.).

Learning theory in a way that is useful to you as a musician is a long path - a very worthwhile path, but a long one that has no short-cuts. Again - there's nothing wrong with using short-cuts to demystify a Rush song - but don't confuse the little theory-related things with a way to learn theory.
 

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