Musical Theory VS Musical Ear

[zon6c-f]

IMO...I'ts good to have both. Without a good ear, music theory is just that...theory. I admire those with a vast knowledge of theory; chord voicings, harmony and the rest, but I envy those who are touched with a gift of playing by ear; playing instantly what they hear in their minds. However, theory makes playing by ear better. I certainly agree with learning, which you can do from a vast amount of great books available. People who hear me pontificate about theory ask me if I am thinking thory when I play bass...
No...not any extent. Music theory is the written language of music. Therefore it is a tool to communicate musical thought....nothing more, regardless. As I learned which birds make which calls or sounds, I can identify them. Without that knowledge, it's just bird noises. I believe that to communicate with others in a group context, I would rather everyone know enough theory to comprehend what is meant by saying, "It's in the key of C, with a chromatic walk-up from A, as opposed to saying., " OK...I've got this thing and it kind of goes like this"... I have the best books IMO on music theory and after having read them, I should be able to read/write music as fluently as in English, however, this is not the case. I can hear something which is not overly complictaed and play it back to you immediately, and improvise from it after a third hearing. Given the same music in written form, I'll have to take it home, study it and get back with you next week. Once there are doted this and slurred that's with syncopation and dotted rests...I become lost quickly, but it's my fault for not studying and working with others to resolve my issues. Get with a trained keyboard player and you'll pick up some theory quickly..or you'll be lost even quicker. Learn the rules..then you have the knowledge for when to break them. Just my 2 cents.

 

[SurferJoe46]

I went and interviewed two bass instructors today. It was my Pawn shop and GC trip - and there's a place with great tacos on the way - both ways so I ate there twice today.

Anyway - both instructors said that they didn't think they could actually teach me much of anything about style, ear or technique - although I have a wide open door for a theory education.

One even said he wished he had the ear ability I had - so that kinda took me unaware. I played with him for a few minutes on something I'd never heard before and I too was kinda astounded that I could find the key changes and the resolves as easily as I did.

What one said was that he'd teach me, but he wasn't too sure of the modes himself as he's not had anyone come in just wanting to learn them all by themselves. The other said that I was 'way past that and just go with the flow where I was now and enjoy myself.

The last one even invited me to an open jam-fest on Saturday afternoons at a closed storefront where he sometimes teaches, and that I was in a better groove than most of the students he or the other instructors have currently.

The owner of the other store (who had been on the pro-road with an off-group from the Ventures) said I was OK in his estimation too. He showed me a pix of himself playing rhythm with Nokie Edwards (bass) so it seems certifiable anyway.

I got my boat floated pretty good today. But I am worried - worried about what is it I want to do about the things that I perceive as a musical inadequacy on my part.

Today was both depressing and elevating for me.

I think a fetal position for the next 8 hours is a good idea, right about now.

 

[chump stain]

I'm always for lessons. You don't have to focus on the modes so much, but more so general theory. If you know the notes on your neck, and you know what key you're playing in, you'll know which notes are the sour ones, and which ones are sweet. That's all the modes help you with anyway.

Try one of these teachers out, you can always take lessons from someone else later.

 

[SurferJoe46]

I'm always for lessons. You don't have to focus on the modes so much, but more so general theory. If you know the notes on your neck, and you know what key you're playing in, you'll know which notes are the sour ones, and which ones are sweet. That's all the modes help you with anyway.

Try one of these teachers out, you can always take lessons from someone else later.

PM sent

 

[rosanne]

I don't think you should waste your time and money on the wrong teachers. Been there, done that. Keep looking until you find someone better suited to teach you what you want to learn.

 

[SurferJoe46]

I don't think you should waste your time and money on the wrong teachers. Been there, done that. Keep looking until you find someone better suited to teach you what you want to learn.

Yeah - kinda think so too.

 

[the_hook]

Buy the book I mentioned. I'm going through it now, if anything it'll at least open your eyes up to the basics. Doing the tests and CD ear training will quickly let you know where you have gaps and what to work on.

After that you can drill a prospective teacher better. If they don't know the stuff in that book then move on to someone who does.

 

[SurferJoe46]

Buy the book I mentioned. I'm going through it now, if anything it'll at least open your eyes up to the basics. Doing the tests and CD ear training will quickly let you know where you have gaps and what to work on.

After that you can drill a prospective teacher better. If they don't know the stuff in that book then move on to someone who does.

I'm all over it. Gonna find that book/CD.

I had a small (to you guys maybe, but not necessarily to me) epiphany last night.

Thank-you to 'you'.

You know who you are!

 

[Thunderthumbs73]

Keep looking until you find someone better suited to teach you what you want to learn.

I'm not saying there are not "wrong" teachers, in a sense. But I think there has to be a balance, and I dissagree strongly with your last statement. Why?

I think the right teacher is going to be interested in, and will help you learn what you *want* to learn, but ALSO knows more than you do, and will try to help you learn what you *need* to learn. based on their greater experience, ability, and vantage point of "the wider picture".

And perhaps that's a difference between me and some other teachers. I'm happy to help you break down and learn songs or some technique, but I feel if I'm doing my job right, I'll teach you enough and in a way so that eventually, you really don't need me any more. Kinda like parenting. You give 'em the tools and what you think they should know, so they can go out into the world, and handle it, and do their own thing, and teach others if they so choose.

 

[finalrequiem]

... That makes playing a 9 lb bass kinda interesting. And drafty.

I didn't read the whole thread but I wanted you to know that I appreciate your sense of humor in the middle of difficulty and find it inspiring. I've been in the dumps lately over what I now realize is silly, trivial junk. Good luck and play every chance you get!

 

[rosanne]

I'm not saying there are not "wrong" teachers, in a sense. But I think there has to be a balance, and I dissagree strongly with your last statement. Why?

I think the right teacher is going to be interested in, and will help you learn what you *want* to learn, but ALSO knows more than you do, and will try to help you learn what you *need* to learn. based on their greater experience, ability, and vantage point of "the wider picture".

And perhaps that's a difference between me and some other teachers. I'm happy to help you break down and learn songs or some technique, but I feel if I'm doing my job right, I'll teach you enough and in a way so that eventually, you really don't need me any more. Kinda like parenting. You give 'em the tools and what you think they should know, so they can go out into the world, and handle it, and do their own thing, and teach others if they so choose.

I have no argument with you here at all!

It was my understanding that OP was not interested in learning yet more licks, or more tunes. He wants to learn theory. Of course a good teacher is going to assess his overall playing and address those aspects that need improvement. Any good teacher will. Unfortunately not all teachers are good teachers.

 

[tZer]

I got my boat floated pretty good today. But I am worried - worried about what is it I want to do about the things that I perceive as a musical inadequacy on my part.

Today was both depressing and elevating for me.

I think a fetal position for the next 8 hours is a good idea, right about now.

I think I can actually help you with the 'inadequacy' part. It takes time, but without question it will solve your dilemma.

I, like you, was feeling that sense of 'inadequacy' in spite of the fact that I'd been able to play with every type of band I'd ever wanted - classical on upright, big band jazz on electric, jazz combos on both upright and electric, metal, pop, original, rock, experimental and so on... In other words - I gots the chops and like you, most of my peers and people who came to see me always gave me thumbs up - EVEN the guy I ended up taking lessons from. He told me when I asked him to teach me that he'd be happy to, but he didn't know why I thought I needed lessons.

OK - that's the setup. Here's the payoff. I [critical player in this story] felt inadequate because even though I'd studied theory throughout high school and into my short college career as a music ed major - and even though I'd played with a huge variety of ensembles - still felt like I didn't understand some things about music that I felt were important. Like why 'the modes' mattered - for example.

So I found a teacher and told him that I wanted to both improve my playing ability and learn how to apply "music theory" - specifically, how modes impact what I do as a player. So my lessons not only included technique work, exercises and so forth - it also included untangling modes, then applying them to real-world situations.

It only took a few months of lessons before the 'mysteries' that made me feel inadequate started to become "Oh, it's just that? Meh... it's not as big a deal as I thought..."

I learned a LOT in those few short months - but the most important thing was I took action and got some answers that ultimately made me realize I was being WAY too hard on myself with the whole sense of 'inadequacy' thing.

BUT - I'd have never overcome that feeling had I not takes steps that ultimately showed me so. It's not that I gained any more real 'musical knowledge' - but I did gain an understanding that allowed me to know what I already know as a musician does indeed mean I am anything BUT inadequate. I am effective, intelligent and versatile.

Since then, I've continue to educate myself by purchasing a self-study book on Jazz Theory and treating it as if I were back in school. Now a part of my continued pursuit of music includes educating myself, and seeking education about things like theory - and bass building.

The moral of the story is that if you do feel inadequate, you're probably being way too hard on yourself. But someone like me telling you that won't make it go away. You'll need to discover that for yourself. If you find a teacher who will work with you on music theory - along with general technique - you will inevitable demystify what's making you feel as you do - and you'll stop feeling that way.

If you don't, however, you'll always wonder and even though I am reasonably certain you are fine and anything but inadequate, you are the only person who can make that feeling go away.

Find a teacher - start taking the day by day steps necessary to prove to yourself that you really are as good as you are. I promise you if you take that kind of proactive approach to your own mastery of your instrument, you'll transcend these bothersome feelings of inadequacy very quickly. Nothing squishes those things better than taking action.

 

[SurferJoe46]

I think that's pretty much the nail in the coffin. It's that niggling doubt that something's missing and I need to understand it to be happy.

You should see my chickens and the way I monitor their hatching, percentages of protein in their diets and then inoculations and such.

My wife says I have a tight sphincter (that's her cute analysis that I'm anal-retentive) and that I take all the fun out of having hobby chickens. However I don't see it that way: my chickens win ribbons and they produce the greatest eggs I can imagine.

So I guess it's the same with the bass too. I want to actually know what I am doing once I have done it and of course the 'speaking text' of it is hard if you don't know the lingo.

For the first time (last night's epiphany) I learned what it meant to have certain fingers on certain strings and their relationship to the root and the rest of the key notes. I will need a refresher course on it, but I had the light finally shine at the end of the tunnel.

Lights and dark tunnels have been a bugaboo with me - perhaps that why I never considered becoming a proctologist.

 

[Porkbun]

Is it then easier since you can tell what the root form of the music is being played at that moment and do you really know all those hundreds of forms?

I cant read through the whole thread since im on my way to pick up another bass hyper but my music teacher picked up his saxophone and started soloing with(?) the mariachi band that played at our school during cinco de mayo after only listening to a verse. I think it all depends on the song. You wouldnt necessarily play a blues scale during a rock or jazz song and many people only know a few forms but can do so much with it (pentatonic, major, minor).

 

[tZer]

Fear and ignorance are our greatest enemies. The great thing is they are easily overcome by understanding that most of the reason we feel inadequate or insecure has little to do with the known and a lot to do with the unknown.

I've been a 'serious' musician since Jr. High (middle school to some) due to being in a school system that had a VERY strong, competitive music program. This meant I was surrounded for 6 years (jr-high school) by very serious-minded music students. We watched jazz, rock, marching, orchestral and other performance tapes with eyes fixed on our respective counterparts absorbing ever last bit of what we could from what we could see and hear.

I extended that passion into college and opted for the music ed route - but suffice it to say, I was not mature enough to fully take advantage of college. That said, however, my attitude and experience up to that point was very keenly honed and my concept of what a 'musician' was had a very high standard attached. It was much more than just a dude who could play some rock and roll on a guitar.

So when I was asked by my peers in later bands (in my late 20's and early 30's) if I thought if myself as a musician, I'd always tell them I didn't which always got puzzled reactions. I'd explain that I knew real musicians and what they put into becoming such and I also know that I've not put all of that into my own 'kit' as a player, so I simply consider myself a reasonably well educated player - but not a musician.

After repeating this story a couple dozen times, I finally met a guitar player who is now a very close friend and long-time band mate. He and I both felt our status as educated, but non-musician players was getting old and both of us, on our own, began to change that by seeking education and doing all that stuff we knew we needed to in order to feel like we could call ourselves 'musicians' with pride - and not just accept the 'out' that says anyone who can play an instrument is a musician.

That was about 8 years ago. Since then we've both been studying, reading, learning, jamming and supporting each other in our pursuit of all angles of music. The great thing is that I definitely do not feel inadequate nor do I not feel like a musician. The equally great thing is that all the things you do to continue to learn and grow are very satisfying!

Dig in - do that stuff your gut tells you you must do and when you honestly feel like you're putting in the sweat equity those niggling little doubts will go away. I promise.

Hobby chickens... I've never heard of such a thing! Learn something new everyday, I suppose!

 

[mambo4]

Will learning Major Phrygians and Melodic Minor Lydian Dominants make me a better player?

Learning theory will not necessarily make you a better player. But it Help you understand, identify, memorize, recreate, transpose, modify, add to and especially communicate to others all that you hear and play.

Does anybody really know all those gazillians of formulas?

Major and Minor pentatonic, 7 modes of the major scale,
7 modes of the harmonic minor, 7 modes of the melodic minor...that's 23"formulas". Maybe 23 1/2 if you include the minor pentatonic blues scale... anything beyond those modes is so rare as to be useless to memorize. Don't memorize the scales, memorize how they are constructed in terms of modifying the major scale.

But honestly, after major, minor, mixolydian, and the pentatonic scales, your better off learning harmony than all those less uncommon modes.

 

[Billnc]

But honestly, after major, minor, mixolydian, and the pentatonic scales, your better off learning harmony than all those less uncommon modes.

Yes, the other stuff I found interesting, but in the grand scheme of things I wasted an awful lot of time learning crap I would never use. I learned guitar at a time when everything was harmony and those scales you mentioned, in the mid 70's.

In the 90's when I took up bass, everything was all scales and modes. I learned every last one. About two years ago I started taking the approach I learned on guitar to bass.

Having been exposed to both worlds, your quote covers what really needs to be learned.

 

[tZer]

...Having been exposed to both worlds, your quote covers what really needs to be learned.

And you just said exactly what I was thinking when I saw his post. In 99% of pop, those four little 'modes' pretty much cover the spectrum.

 

[SurferJoe46]

Update:

I put some of these great ideas and things into motion and got those Bass For Dummies DVDs and a few books, and they have all been helpful - they just seem to cater to the idea that you are in training for the philharmonic orchestra and that you have nothing better to do than learn their method and totally eschew all others.

Saying all that, they individually and collectively have some great information and are serving me well. I can still learn!

Yesterday I went to a pretty nice jam with quite a few artists (I use that term with 1000% accuracy) as they are almost all - to the person - professional playing artists in all sorts of musical venues.

There were over 13 others plus the studio owner, a great friend of mine.

From in-demand studio musicians in LA and Reno, to active 'not-so-starving' artist types who really know their craft. Drummers, keyboardists (although we were a little short on them) and full-on jazz guitarists who totally blew me away!

We started a rather complex 8-bar for warm up that lasted for thirty minutes and moved into Clapton "Cocaine" and "Sunshine Of Your Smile" stuff and then Beatles-everything!

There were quite a few songs I've never heard before and especially one by The Babys/Babies(?) of which I have no recall at all - and I really got into it pretty good.

We started at about 3PM and played until midnight and food/drink/potty breaks were on a rotational basis, so the music never stopped. .

I think I sat in the mix for all but 1/2-hour (my pizza/beer break) and at about 10PM we chilled it down a little, shut down the drums and went into some kewl jazz improve stuff for the next 2 hours.

One of the songs I liked best was this by Jefferson Airplane from their BARK album: Invalid Link Removed

The nicest part was holding my own and actually starting that Jefferson Airplane song as it's one of my favorites. I actually got to tell the guitarist that it was in 9ths and ran the bassline for him a few times while he noodled it out and then he broke into it with full force. I never hummed it better in my life.

For him having never heard it before, (not to mention my humming it to him) he absolutely N A I L E D - I T!

Listen to that song and see for yourself if that isn't a great late-night piece to improv!

Anyway - it was a great Night With The Stars for me; I felt nervous going in, but they seemed to help me hang and once I felt at ease, it flowed pretty good.

Yeah - there were a few oops-notes, but not all of them were from me! I blame the beer.

 

[rosanne]

Update:

I put some of these great ideas and things into motion and got those Bass For Dummies DVDs and a few books, and they have all been helpful - they just seem to cater to the idea that you are in training for the philharmonic orchestra and that you have nothing better to do than learn their method and totally eschew all others.

Saying all that, they individually and collectively have some great information and are serving me well. I can still learn!

Yesterday I went to a pretty nice jam with quite a few artists (I use that term with 1000% accuracy) as they are almost all - to the person - professional playing artists in all sorts of musical venues.

There were over 13 others plus the studio owner, a great friend of mine.

From in-demand studio musicians in LA and Reno, to active 'not-so-starving' artist types who really know their craft. Drummers, keyboardists (although we were a little short on them) and full-on jazz guitarists who totally blew me away!

We started a rather complex 8-bar for warm up that lasted for thirty minutes and moved into Clapton "Cocaine" and "Sunshine Of Your Smile" stuff and then Beatles-everything!

There were quite a few songs I've never heard before and especially one by The Babys/Babies(?) of which I have no recall at all - and I really got into it pretty good.

We started at about 3PM and played until midnight and food/drink/potty breaks were on a rotational basis, so the music never stopped. .

I think I sat in the mix for all but 1/2-hour (my pizza/beer break) and at about 10PM we chilled it down a little, shut down the drums and went into some kewl jazz improve stuff for the next 2 hours.

One of the songs I liked best was this by Jefferson Airplane from their BARK album: Invalid Link Removed

The nicest part was holding my own and actually starting that Jefferson Airplane song as it's one of my favorites. I actually got to tell the guitarist that it was in 9ths and ran the bassline for him a few times while he noodled it out and then he broke into it with full force. I never hummed it better in my life.

For him having never heard it before, (not to mention my humming it to him) he absolutely N A I L E D - I T!

Listen to that song and see for yourself if that isn't a great late-night piece to improv!

Anyway - it was a great Night With The Stars for me; I felt nervous going in, but they seemed to help me hang and once I felt at ease, it flowed pretty good.

Yeah - there were a few oops-notes, but not all of them were from me! I blame the beer.

Sounds like you had an awesome time! And Hard to get much cooler than that!