My band's failed attempt at going ampless

[Geri O]

Don't mean to sound condescending, but yes for a music connoisseur there is a difference. (for not sounding condescending, you've done a sorry job of not doing so)

Ever stand in the same room with a Marshall half stack? There is a force and energy way beyond just sound. The way the cabinet shakes, the speakers distort, the ground vibrates and the tone fills the room is pretty magical. It evokes excitement. The late great Allen Holdsworth used to say "you have to move air, man!" We shared the same distain for amp emulations. Kempers, fractals and the like through a full range PA speaker are not the same experience.
Stand in front of a stage with real amps and drums and there is a much higher level of excitement than just "good coverage". You get to interact with the band and feel their power and emotion. If the guitar is too loud, move to the center or the other side of the stage. It is a true stereo experience. Of course this only pertains to smaller venues, not 10,000 seat rooms. And also requires a good soundperson that can mix the vocals above stage volume. I see more and more IEM bands that "DIY" it and control sound from the stage (as in my experience seeing the Metallica trib band)

Ever stand in front of an acoustic jazz quartet? The imaging is magic. Close your eyes and you can place the piano on one side, acoustic bass on the other and hear the intricacies of the cymbals and toms. Way better than a mono one dimensional mix through PA speakers. Also the interaction of the musicians actually listening to each other on stage and implementing dynamics...what a concept.

Ever hear a good tenor sax player in a room? way better than the nasally honk you usually hear through a mic and PA.

Ever sit in front of a big band or an orchestra? of course soloists can benefit from a boost through the house PA but... man, the excitement and way beyond stereo imaging of the sound bouncing in, around and off all the different surfaces and reaching your ears from a million different angles is again, magic!

As far as a backline look. It's entertainment, esthetics are part of the show. Like tats, clothes, hair, cool looking basses... A heavy band with 1 8" rumble combo amp behind them isn't going add to the look they are going for.

This is why, as a pro audio guy, with many years of pro experience mixing IEM monitors for bands, local, regional, and national, I just can't participate in these discussions about IEMs anymore.

When someone asks me about their band looking into using IEMs, there's usually one guy with an overview such as this of "How things should be". And he/she is right, everyone else is wrong, and anyone that disagrees is an idiot. And I've had enough of that crap for one lifetime.

I don't even care anymore. When I get that inquiry, I refer them to someone else in town. I haven't joined a new band in a few years, but I bring in my IEMs and I pretty much dodge questions about them unless I see a genuine desire to go IEM and willingness to put in the work and investment.

God Bless guys like @s0c9 and @Mike Caldwell among a few. others for pitching and offering help and dealing with the insipid arguments (How the hell did orchestras get into this discussion?? Yes, I've mixed symphony shows where the featured artist and rhythm section used IEMs and very successfully. I know what I'm doing. Had nothing to do with the initial discussion).

I'm so over it

Good luck to whomever does whatever with the matter.

 

[Flog]

The PA mix should have been flat out rocking for a Metallica tribute band, some front fill on the stage would not hurt either.

For what it's worth Metallica is basically ampless using modelers.

Right!
(unless you are playing 10,000 seat arenas) IEM for rock bands can be a slippery slope.
-stop playing through amps because it's an easier load in and there are more tone options
-start mixing from stage because it's easier and "hey, it's sounds great in my ears"
-get rid of the soundman and light guy. " we can DIY this and save money"
as a result the show and entertainment value suffers.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

I run sound for a band and their guitarist runs the FOH mix back at himself over a powered wedge. This gives the guitar more life for his playing. Without it, the guitar doesn't have the feel / sustain of playing through an amp where you have the interaction. He used to run just his mix in the wedge, but that would mess up the overall balance at lower volume gigs. Now with FOH in the wedge, he still gets life from his guitar and it's not competing with the mains.

 

[Thunderthumbs73]

My (old fart) thoughts on going ampless. It makes sense if you are playing huge venues where the sound has to come through huge PA's. You need at least 1 sound tech out in the room at the main board or tablet balancing the FoH and another one close to the stage running the monitor mix. EVERYONE needs their own monitor mix. It does not however, make much sense to me when playing smaller venues where a 2x10 250 watt bass combo is more than adequate. Having everything through the PA in a small to medium seems like using a big farm tractor to mow your lawn. When the music comes from the stage amps, each instrument is coming from its' own point source. This gives the music much more depth dimension. Having everything through the PA especially when it is set up mono sounds dull and 1 dimensional to me. The musicians I play with (bunch of old farts) can get a nice balanced 3 dimensional sound from stage amps with vocals only through the PA. Going ampless in smaller venues without the right equipment and the extra help to run it will only degrade your sound. (jmho)

You make a few very good points. In smaller venues with less required volume and with a more intimate environment, it stands to reason that there is less need (less rationale?) to go ampless, although on the other hand, smaller venues have smaller stages with less space for amps.

The other point that I think a lot of people don't mention which you have, is the depth dimension aspect of going ampless. I think that is so important. And even on some stages, there's very noticeable sonically empty spots because there aren't any center-fill speakers, on the premise that the subs and mains are so loud on the sides, a center-fill isn't needed, or it's not possible to provide. I guess if you sit at a sweet spot for mixing and listening, perhaps that's true, but if you're at clubs, bars, events, you're moving around, saying hello, dancing, etc... you're aware of dead zones or dropouts of sound.

In fact, I'm in conversation with a good friend who's in a very good pro-level band that I see a lot. Our topic is why some musicians don't take his band seriously, or why his band doesn't have a better gigging musician community following. Yes, they use a keyboard track because they're 80s Tribute with keyboard players with all the right sounds in short supply, but more to the point here, they go ampless, and to boot, they often (usually?) don't have a center fill sound source. I think listening musicians are sensitive to those things, and the public sometimes is too, and so it may feel for lack of better words, synthetic, overly processed, and something is just "off"...

Going ampless has it's value, I guess. On a rare occasion, it's actually required. As an instrumentalist, I've never cared for those gigs, but it is what it is.

 

[_Some Dude]

IMO, the reality for players in club/venues where stage volume is part of the FOH is different from those playing in large enough spaces that the PA dwarfs the stage volume. (sound reinforcement vs sound production)

I also think there's some practical problems/limitations with trying to take one reality into the other reality.

It's also worth pointing out that when Metallica plays a small club with modellers they use live cabs on stage.

 

[DirtDog]

Man I hope you tried this out in rehearsal first rather than a gig!

 

[erayser]

This is why, as a pro audio guy, with many years of pro experience mixing IEM monitors for bands, local, regional, and national, I just can't participate in these discussions about IEMs anymore.

When someone asks me about their band looking into using IEMs, there's usually one guy with an overview such as this of "How things should be". And he/she is right, everyone else is wrong, and anyone that disagrees is an idiot. And I've had enough of that crap for one lifetime.

I don't even care anymore. When I get that inquiry, I refer them to someone else in town. I haven't joined a new band in a few years, but I bring in my IEMs and I pretty much dodge questions about them unless I see a genuine desire to go IEM and willingness to put in the work and investment.

God Bless guys like @s0c9 and @Mike Caldwell among a few. others for pitching and offering help and dealing with the insipid arguments (How the hell did orchestras get into this discussion?? Yes, I've mixed symphony shows where the featured artist and rhythm section used IEMs and very successfully. I know what I'm doing. Had nothing to do with the initial discussion).

I'm so over it

Good luck to whomever does whatever with the matter.

Please don’t be to upset about this. I kind of enjoyed reading your rant… which I agree with you on… hoping to see on future post/threads like this in the future.

 

[Wasnex]

Ever stand in the same room with a Marshall half stack? There is a force and energy way beyond just sound. The way the cabinet shakes, the speakers distort, the ground vibrates and the tone fills the room is pretty magical.

I actually own couple of full stacks including a Marshall 1960AX and 1960BX. My Marshall guitar amps include vintage JCM800 1959 and JMP 2203. So yes I understand the magic.

Whether it's useful or appropriate to draw on the magic of a Marshall full stack is an important factor to consider. If you're playing heavy music in dive bar where everyone expects and wants to be blasted, great; go ahead and rock out to your hearts content. I suggest protecting your hearing, or expect early onset of tinnitus and hearing loss, but the choice is yours.

In my experience a full stack is way too much for the gigs most of us do. IMHO, something like a Fender Princeton or Deluxe Reverb is often more than enough. But a lot of guitar players could care less about what suits the room and audience. Instead they make excuses about not being able to dial their monster stack back to a reasonable volume because it doesn't sound or feel right. They will also insist that live music is supposed to be loud.

Here's the deal. If you are a pro, the job is actually to give your patron and the audience what they want rather than satisfy your need to crank a massive amp. If you want to be a successful pro, either figure out how to play at a reasonable volume, or only take gigs where you can play as loud as you want. If you don't care what the audience thinks, maybe it would be best if you just jammed in a suitable practice space with like minded people.

I put my first IEM based system together around 1995 or so. I asked a lot of people for a critique of our sound and the only negative was some thought we sounded too much like a CD. Although I understood they meant this negatively, it was actually consistent with my goals for the system.

You may find this surprising, but the band's ability to play at a lower volume actually increased request for our services. A lot of people really appreciate a band that can figure out how to put on a good show without blowing the roof off.

 

[Windreaper]

IMO, the reality for players in club/venues where stage volume is part of the FOH is different from those playing in large enough spaces that the PA dwarfs the stage volume. (sound reinforcement vs sound production)

I also think there's some practical problems/limitations with trying to take one reality into the other reality.

It's also worth pointing out that when Metallica plays a small club with modellers they use live cabs on stage.

If anything, controlling stage volume is more important on small stages due to sound sources being in close proximity to each other (and a bunch of mics intended to pick up something else). Just finished playing a 200-cap room with an older but perfectly adequate L-Acoustics ARCS + SB18 system. No amps on stage, very little drums in the PA, sounded great. The house engineer ran the shows at ~100dB average which was enough to balance vocals and instruments with loud acoustic drums.

Acoustic drums (and the audience) typically set the floor that must be overcome by the PA. I get it, if the venue doesn't have an adequate PA system you need to rely on amps, but it isn't an optimal situation from sound reinforcement perspective.

Because a famous artist does something doesn't mean it should be emulated - Elton John reportedly has loud wedges blasting his face at deafening volume levels. People using modelers can typically have real cabs on stage for two reasons: a) feedback b) preference - they like the way real cabs sound and feel. It's not strictly optimal, but if the artist likes it that way more power to them.

 

[Wasnex]

The other point that I think a lot of people don't mention which you have, is the depth dimension aspect of going ampless. I think that is so important. And even on some stages, there's very noticeable sonically empty spots because there aren't any center-fill speakers, on the premise that the subs and mains are so loud on the sides, a center-fill isn't needed, or it's not possible to provide. I guess if you sit at a sweet spot for mixing and listening, perhaps that's true, but if you're at clubs, bars, events, you're moving around, saying hello, dancing, etc... you're aware of dead zones or dropouts of sound.

So your supposition is using amps provides more uniform dispersion of the sound? You might want to do some research on how typical instrument cabs disperse sound.

Try walking across the stage in front of a 212 or 412 guitar cab. You will find plenty of comb filtering and very strong treble response directly in front of the cab. Most guitar players avoid standing directly in front of their cabs.

410 bass cabs are also fairly beamy. If a bass player wants to hear clear highs, they should stand directly in front of their cab and either elevate it or tilt it back to aim at their ears.

For the following, the Greek letter lambda is the symbol for wavelength. Distance is the center to center spacing between drivers.

My guess is a pair of 12s will probably have center to center spacing of about 14". 900hz has a wavelength (lambda) of about 14". If the center to center driver spacing is 14" you get this pattern along the axis the drivers are aligned on.

Spacing with a 410 will probably be a little closer, which will push the pattern to a higher frequency. Let's assume the center to center spacing is 12". The lambda for 565hz is 24". Since the driver spacing is 12" you get this pattern.

Lambda of 1130hz is 12", so you get this pattern again. Same as 900hz at 14" center to center spacing.

Left cab is 412 guitar at 900hz and right cab is 410 bass at 565hz

The dispersion patterns will vary by frequency, as show in the first graphic. So amps do not uniformly cover the room.

 

[bucephylus]

This is why, as a pro audio guy, with many years of pro experience mixing IEM monitors for bands, local, regional, and national, I just can't participate in these discussions about IEMs anymore.

When someone asks me about their band looking into using IEMs, there's usually one guy with an overview such as this of "How things should be". And he/she is right, everyone else is wrong, and anyone that disagrees is an idiot. And I've had enough of that crap for one lifetime.

I don't even care anymore. When I get that inquiry, I refer them to someone else in town. I haven't joined a new band in a few years, but I bring in my IEMs and I pretty much dodge questions about them unless I see a genuine desire to go IEM and willingness to put in the work and investment.

God Bless guys like @s0c9 and @Mike Caldwell among a few. others for pitching and offering help and dealing with the insipid arguments (How the hell did orchestras get into this discussion?? Yes, I've mixed symphony shows where the featured artist and rhythm section used IEMs and very successfully. I know what I'm doing. Had nothing to do with the initial discussion).

I'm so over it

Good luck to whomever does whatever with the matter.

Please excuse me; but, your post is confusing to me.

The OP described difficulties an inexperienced band encountered trying to use IEM’s. I used the example of an orchestra to make the point that experienced musicians in an ensemble listen to each other; an aspect that seemed to me to be a root issue with the OP band.

Your passive / aggressive reference to my post would seem to indicate that I somehow insulted your integrity as a musician. I apologize for any offense; none was intended.

The IEM hardware / gear is amazing. Great SE’s are treasures.

Bands with volume war musicians are another matter; which IEM’s on their own can’t fix. If you are playing Death Metal or sitting in an orchestra, you still should be hearing your fellow band mates’ parts. If that is offensive; then, again I apologize for my opinion.

 

[Windreaper]

This is why, as a pro audio guy, with many years of pro experience mixing IEM monitors for bands, local, regional, and national, I just can't participate in these discussions about IEMs anymore.

When someone asks me about their band looking into using IEMs, there's usually one guy with an overview such as this of "How things should be". And he/she is right, everyone else is wrong, and anyone that disagrees is an idiot. And I've had enough of that crap for one lifetime.

I don't even care anymore. When I get that inquiry, I refer them to someone else in town. I haven't joined a new band in a few years, but I bring in my IEMs and I pretty much dodge questions about them unless I see a genuine desire to go IEM and willingness to put in the work and investment.

God Bless guys like @s0c9 and @Mike Caldwell among a few. others for pitching and offering help and dealing with the insipid arguments (How the hell did orchestras get into this discussion?? Yes, I've mixed symphony shows where the featured artist and rhythm section used IEMs and very successfully. I know what I'm doing. Had nothing to do with the initial discussion).

I'm so over it

Good luck to whomever does whatever with the matter.

It's quite fascinating, really. Going off-topic, but the live sound industry is only 60-ish years old. We are now able to maximize the direct sound pointed at the audience. We have affordable IEM systems that reduce stage volume and allow musicians to hear themselves better, and equipment that can put out signals cleaner and closer to the studio record than ever. The level of sound engineers has increased - I've run into nothing but excellent house guys post COVID.

I started gigging and running sound back in the 2000s, when racks&stacks, loud backlines, wedges, and ringing ears was still the norm. Those times were terrible. I can understand nostalgia to a degree, but I also prefer to smile and nod when I run into people with such selective memories (or a love affair with loud stage amps).

Bands with volume war musicians are another matter; which IEM’s on their own can’t fix. If you are playing Death Metal or sitting in an orchestra, you still should be hearing your fellow band mates’ parts. If that is offensive; then, again I apologize for my opinion.

What you SHOULD hear is a matter of opinion, but you only NEED to hear whatever is required to do your job. I play a lot of metal gigs and all I NEED to hear is kick and snare (and preferably my bass). Also, IEMs absolutely do fix volume wars because each musician has their own listening environment - the guitarist can crank their guitar in their buds without affecting anyone else's monitoring in the slightest.

 

[_Some Dude]

If anything, controlling stage volume is more important on small stages due to sound sources being in close proximity to each other

Agreed.

Can we also agree that a real amp can be dialled down to an appropriate volume?

Honestly, I find this is even easier with IEMs since no one needs to touch their master to get more of themselves in their ears. I've experienced zero volume wars since switching to them.


FWIW - I tell every soundman we work with that if anyone is too loud out front to tell them to turn down and they won't get any pushback. It's worked out really well for us, and I'm surprised at how often they get one of us to turn up. This has become doubly important with IEMs as none of us can judge how loud we are out front, particularly with the ears in.

 

[s0c9]

Can we also agree that a real amp can be dialled down to an appropriate volume?

Solid State - absolutely.. Tube?.. Not so much.
Guitarists need to get that "tone" from the tube drive, so even a 25w tube amp can get REAL loud, and often won't sound the same when dialed back.
Bass is a totally different animal.

FWIW - I tell every soundman we work with that if anyone is too loud out front to tell them to turn down and they won't get any pushback. It's worked out really well for us, and I'm surprised at how often they get one of us to turn up. This has become doubly important with IEMs as none of us can judge how loud we are out front, particularly with the ears in.

With all my years of running FOH (and being on the other side of the stage) can't honestly say I've come across even a handful of "local" bands who can follow that creed. Pro's can, but congrats on being able to do so.

I had one gig 20 yrs ago(?) for a local rock band in a dive ("dark") biker bar. Lead singer/lead guitar had a small amp pointed up (that was a start) at his knees from the side (not good). TOO LOUD, said he couldn't hear himself. I asked him to turn it down numerous times as it was blowing out the rest of the band. During the 3rd set (4 set night) I [finally] went over and turned down his amps master volume. His GF B1TCHED at me about not being able to hear him thruought the set, but he did NOT change the volume for the 4th set. She still complained.
After the show, "friends of the band" came over to say it was the best the band had ever sounded.
Great !! I didn't get a 2nd gig, but they DID sound good.

 

[TheArchitect]

Totally agree. My IEM mix for my events band is so sparse that is shocks my own bandmates when they see my mixer app. My bass at 0db, my vocals at 0db, everyone else’s vocals at -6db, the tracks and click at -3db, and if we’re on a gigantic stage where I can’t hear the drummer via proximity I add just enough kick and snare to get the job done and not interfere with the other elements. It is not a mix I would ever listen to casually, but for that band in that application it works perfectly for me to deliver a great performance night after night. If anyone else in the band pulled up my mix they would find it completely unusable, as I would if I pulled up theirs.

This is exactly it. Monitors are to hear what you have to have, not a full band mix.

 

[Thunderthumbs73]

So your supposition is using amps provides more uniform dispersion of the sound? You might want to do some research on how typical instrument cabs disperse sound. Try walking across the stage in front of a 212 or 412 guitar cab. You will find plenty of comb filtering and very strong treble response directly in front of the cab. Most guitar players avoid standing directly in front of their cabs. 410 bass cabs are also fairly beamy. If a bass player wants to hear clear highs, they should stand directly in front of their cab and either elevate it or tilt it back to aim at their ears. For the following, the Greek letter lambda is the symbol for wavelength. Distance is the center to center spacing between drivers. View attachment 7120030 My guess is a pair of 12s will probably have center to center spacing of about 14". 900hz has a wavelength (lambda) of about 14". If the center to center driver spacing is 14" you get this pattern along the axis the drivers are aligned on. View attachment 7120031 Spacing with a 410 will probably be a little closer, which will push the pattern to a higher frequency. Let's assume the center to center spacing is 12". The lambda for 565hz is 24". Since the driver spacing is 12" you get this pattern. View attachment 7120032 Lambda of 1130hz is 12", so you get this pattern again. Same as 900hz at 14" center to center spacing. View attachment 7120033 Left cab is 412 guitar at 900hz and right cab is 410 bass at 565hz View attachment 7120044 The dispersion patterns will vary by frequency, as show in the first graphic. So amps do not uniformly cover the room.

So your supposition is using amps provides more uniform dispersion of the sound? You might want to do some research on how typical instrument cabs disperse sound.

Try walking across the stage in front of a 212 or 412 guitar cab. You will find plenty of comb filtering and very strong treble response directly in front of the cab. Most guitar players avoid standing directly in front of their cabs.

410 bass cabs are also fairly beamy. If a bass player wants to hear clear highs, they should stand directly in front of their cab and either elevate it or tilt it back to aim at their ears.

For the following, the Greek letter lambda is the symbol for wavelength. Distance is the center to center spacing between drivers.
View attachment 7120030


My guess is a pair of 12s will probably have center to center spacing of about 14". 900hz has a wavelength (lambda) of about 14". If the center to center driver spacing is 14" you get this pattern along the axis the drivers are aligned on.
View attachment 7120031


Spacing with a 410 will probably be a little closer, which will push the pattern to a higher frequency. Let's assume the center to center spacing is 12". The lambda for 565hz is 24". Since the driver spacing is 12" you get this pattern.
View attachment 7120032

Lambda of 1130hz is 12", so you get this pattern again. Same as 900hz at 14" center to center spacing.
View attachment 7120033


Left cab is 412 guitar at 900hz and right cab is 410 bass at 565hz

View attachment 7120044

The dispersion patterns will vary by frequency, as show in the first graphic. So amps do not uniformly cover the room.

First, I don't think you understood what I was saying, so RELAX, professor. Second, I am not here to doubt or argue the science of what you say.

So...what I was saying is that when you're walking around a room with PA going and amps, there is depth to the sound when it comes from various places such as PA and amps, and I never said it was equal or uniform. If fact *BECAUSE* it's not equal or uniform, and even with (or also BECAUSE) all of it's sonic imperfections, that is one of the things that gives the live sound from multiple sound sources and different and sometimes changing vantage points, an interesting depth that is missing from going ampless. That is really ALL I was trying to say.

I got to thinking about it also in this way: Imagine your typical orchestra in its typical arrangement performing a piece. Then rearrange that orchestra where EVERYONE is at the leading edge of the stage, lined up in a row, with NOBODY "in the back" of anyone else. I know- that's a incredibly wide stage, but just go with the concept. The same piece of music would sound tremendously different and I'd dare say "odd" given how we are used to hearing orchestras. I believe that depth of sound that is an irreplaceable, unduplicate-able aspect of seeing a live orchestra with its multitude of, and physical placement of sound sources is one of the great, sublime musical pleasures so many have never experienced. Anyway, and interesting aside.

 

[turf3]

All, I can say is thank goodness I have left behind rock and roll playing.

On saxophone, other than taking a solo with a big band, I haven't played into a microphone in years. In fact, most of the time I don't use a microphone with a big band for sax solos. Certainly not a small group.

I do use a small amp for bass (upright or electric) as needed, but since the groups I play with are essentially acoustic (amps only for bass, keyboards to emulate a real piano, guitar and everything else is unamplified) the amps are only there to bring the quiet (upright bass, acoustic guitar) or silent (electric bass, electronic keyboards) up to the level of the acoustic instruments. I am also fortunate that in all the groups I'm currently playing with, Bashy Mc Bashface the Drummer is not tolerated.

I grew up in the 70s. Music was LOUD. When I moved over to jazz, music was still LOUD because we were all coming from rock and roll. One day I had my head completely turned around by one gig. We had a block party gig, and there was no electricity available. Three or four horns, drummer, and for bass they hired a tuba player. We played outdoors. Zero electrons used in the process at all. We could all hear ourselves and each other. (No vocals that day.) We were plenty loud enough. That was the first time I ever really realized that apart from orchestral music, there was an ENTIRE WORLD out there where people were playing music without electricity at all and it SOUNDED GREAT.

I know this sounds like a trivial anecdote to many of you, but if you consider the time and place, it was really a lesson for me. Ever since that day, I have been moving quieter and quieter, and more and more natural, in all my musical environments. I don't know how this relates to folks playing in bars for imbibing dancers, but I'm not conviced that such an environment requires to be ear-splitting for the audience with tons of elaborate equipment to protect the musicians.

 

[_Some Dude]

Solid State - absolutely.. Tube?.. Not so much.
Guitarists need to get that "tone" from the tube drive, so even a 25w tube amp can get REAL loud, and often won't sound the same when dialed back.
Bass is a totally different animal.

As someone who's also a guitarist, I'll agree and disagree. IMO, once you're listening to the amp through an SM57 a lot of that "needs to be turned up" thing goes away, or is at least lessened significantly.

Obviously, some old school amps don't do their thing until they're turned up, but IMO they don't belong on a stage that isn't big enough to support them.

FWIW, we run a Marshall 2555 and 4x12 on stage and IMO it sounds great without having to be at JCM800 levels.

With all my years of running FOH (and being on the other side of the stage) can't honestly say I've come across even a handful of "local" bands who can follow that creed. Pro's can, but congrats on being able to do so.

It's the one piece of advice I give to every player that wants to talk about this stuff. It works out great as some soundmen we work with regularly have become invested in the band and I frequently ask them for advice on how to improve the show. I don't know why more people don't do this.

I had one gig 20 yrs ago(?) for a local rock band in a dive ("dark") biker bar. Lead singer/lead guitar had a small amp pointed up (that was as tart) at his knees from the side (not good). TOO LOUD, said he couldn't hear himself. I asked him to turn it down numerous times as it was blowing out the rest of the band. During the 3rd set (4 set night) I [finally] went over and turned down his amps master volume. His GF B1TCHED at me about not being able to hear him thruought the set, but he did NOT change the volume for the 4th set. She still complained.
After the show, "friends of the band" came over to say it was the best the band had ever sounded.
Great !! I didn't get a 2nd gig, but they DID sound good.

When I first started out I'd get a bunch of "You guys sound good but the bass/guitar/etc is too loud". To which I'd respond, "well, why didn't you tell us as we'd turn it down? This seems like a really easy thing to fix."

Then, I seen a bunch of examples of what you talked about and understand why soundmen have learned to avoid drama.

 

[Freight Train]

I can't grasp the ampless/IEM thing at all. But one thing I can almost guarantee, if by "run your own sound" you mean you are doing it from stage, not with a a sound man you bring along same as a member of the band - you are kidding yourself if you think you can get a good FOH mix AND a monitor mix that will please everybody onstage. Maybe it's just that I play with experienced players, but on most of our gigs we need nothing but vocals in the monitors, and that's just for the vocalist. Unless it's a big stage I personally do not want a monitor blaring in my face, I stand near the drums and if I can hear a hint of guitar I'm totally good. But going ampless you absolutely have to have everything in the monitor mix and properly leveled before you even begin to think about FOH. What is purpose? Are you so infirm that you can't carry equipment? Do you have dance routines where the amps might get in the way? What is the purpose? IMO nothing looks lamer than a band onstage with drums and nothing else. The gear is all part of the rock n' roll look, again IMO. But if you're not that and doing some pop show or something I guess it may be acceptable. Wouldn't know, don't attend such things.

 

[Windreaper]

The gear is all part of the rock n' roll look, again IMO. But if you're not that and doing some pop show or something I guess it may be acceptable. Wouldn't know, don't attend such things.

No worries, we got you covered.