Unfortunately this is common. There are a lot of good sound techs and fortunately most of my experiences have been good. But, yeah, there some (a few too many IMO) who really don't really know how to mix a band. In my experience, bass guitar seems to be the first to get left out of the mix, but often times keyboards, rhythm guitar, and drums get poorly mixed to or completely left out. It seems that there is a "generation of soundmen" that will only give effort to mixing the lead guitar, kick drum (which is usually way too loud in the subs) and vocal. IMHO of course.
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My freindly advice to Soundtechs
- Thread starter stonewall
- Start date
Unfortunately this is common. There are a lot of good sound techs and fortunately most of my experiences have been good. But, yeah, there some (a few too many IMO) who really don't really know how to mix a band. In my experience, bass guitar seems to be the first to get left out of the mix, but often times keyboards, rhythm guitar, and drums get poorly mixed to or completely left out. It seems that there is a "generation of soundmen" that will only give effort to mixing the lead guitar, kick drum (which is usually way too loud in the subs) and vocal. IMHO of course.
That stuff comes from so-called "soundmen" who don't know what tone is. They're the ones who ignore any flavor in the sound, ignore a proper mix, and just take a dry DI off your bass and make go boom boom, like so many teenagers car stereos.
That is not a mix and they do not deserve the title "soundmen". Bass players wouldn't complain about tone if they were mic'd like every other instrument, and guitarists sure as hell would complain about tone if you took a dry DI straight off their guitar.
I think it is fairly easy to tell if a guy is a good engineer or not. Especially if you have a wireless and/or some trusted people out front. Even the guys that aren't top notch are usually friendly and helpful as long as you don't treat them with disdain.
At my gig Saturday night the house provided SE is a well known guy around here and is pretty good. I could tell right away the guy was a little full of himself. The first thing I told him was that we were real easy to please and would cooperate with him in whatever he thought was best. I asked questions and offered my opinions.
Bottom line, I got exactly what I wanted from him and before the night was over he was taking my phone number down and offering to talk us up to other popular local venues.
At my gig Saturday night the house provided SE is a well known guy around here and is pretty good. I could tell right away the guy was a little full of himself. The first thing I told him was that we were real easy to please and would cooperate with him in whatever he thought was best. I asked questions and offered my opinions.
Bottom line, I got exactly what I wanted from him and before the night was over he was taking my phone number down and offering to talk us up to other popular local venues.
I like the OP's idea. Wouldn't that be great.
I have worked with some very good sound techs.
Conversely I have worked with a few who seemed to be pissed off at everyone and everything. I don't get it. I am super nice to sound techs. I usually start by saying, "Hey buddy (they like being called buddy) fetch me a beer would you? And on your way back grab my amp out of the car. And hurry up, I don't have all day".
I have worked with some very good sound techs.
Conversely I have worked with a few who seemed to be pissed off at everyone and everything. I don't get it. I am super nice to sound techs. I usually start by saying, "Hey buddy (they like being called buddy) fetch me a beer would you? And on your way back grab my amp out of the car. And hurry up, I don't have all day".
- Oct 18, 2012
- 6,683
- 5,538
- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: Fender, Spector, Ampeg, Curt Mangan, Nordstrand Pickups, Korg , Conquest Sound
For the most part, I agree and I always do whatever I can to help the sound guy in any way that I can. However, not always. I did a show last weekend and during sound check I was getting a great signal through my amp but nothing through the PA. The sound guy tried convincing me that the problem was either my bass or my amp. It took me about 15 minutes to convince him that the problem was his DI. I then asked him to run direct from the head, which is what I asked him to do in the first place. He finally agreed and the problem was solved. They guy set all the levels and everything seemed fine. There was another band who opened for us and their bass played used my amp. While they were playing I was amazed at how good the bass sounded but also thought that it was too loud. When they finished their set, the club manager came over to me and asked me to turn my bass amp down during our set because it was so loud that it wasn't even running through the PA. I agreed to turn it down and politely told him that it was his sound guy who set the levels and if it was so loud that he couldn't put the bass in the PA mix that he should have mentioned it during sound check. Overall, the night was a success and we had a lot of compliments.
My philosophy is pretty simple. The sound guy can be your best friend at a gig. Treat them with respect but if you know something is wrong, don't be afraid to speak up and don't give in to everything they want either. It's your band and your name.
A lot of musicians simply can not comprehend the amount of "stuff" a soundguy has to deal with if they haven't spent any time on the business side of a live gig mixing board. They just don't get it, they're onoy focus is on their own instrument, or, if they're a bit of a team player, maybe the whole bands sound, but they're still basing their opinion on what it sounds like based off raw amps in a small rehearsal room or up close on a small stage and most don't know/don't have any experience in hearing/thinking past that.
On the other side of the coin, there are at least hundreds if not thousands of "soundmen" out there who only got the job because they either had the gear or sold somebody on buying the gear, and knew just enough of what to plug in where to make sound. You only have to know one more thing than someone who's clueless to seem smart to the clueless. That doesn't mean they know what they're doing. Note the amount of people who size a sound system in "watts" rather than spl, audience coverage, etc.
Somewhere in between those 2 extremes is a lot of talent and good people.
On the other side of the coin, there are at least hundreds if not thousands of "soundmen" out there who only got the job because they either had the gear or sold somebody on buying the gear, and knew just enough of what to plug in where to make sound. You only have to know one more thing than someone who's clueless to seem smart to the clueless. That doesn't mean they know what they're doing. Note the amount of people who size a sound system in "watts" rather than spl, audience coverage, etc.
Somewhere in between those 2 extremes is a lot of talent and good people.
While we're on the subject of soundan etiquette, here's a handy little tip:
Only ONE person in the band- and one alone- is allowed to talk to the sound man. That person is the filter for all who are going to whine about tone and volume. It will just tick the sound man off if the entire band is trying to control his job.
Only ONE person in the band- and one alone- is allowed to talk to the sound man. That person is the filter for all who are going to whine about tone and volume. It will just tick the sound man off if the entire band is trying to control his job.
if you're a club soundguy who's also running monitors, then yeah, you kinda are.
you want the band relaxed and not worried about you, so they can do their job and hopefully be more willing to cooperate in helping you do yours.
there's indeed no time for BSing, and what matters is how well you do the job, but a little friendly gear talk while you're up there plugging in a cable or whatever couldn't hurt.
Some deserve to be bashed but... Far fewer than you might think from reading TB.
Personally I carry a DI that sound guys are going to be comfortable with. It comes before my amp. My amp is a stage monitor. I am very vocal oriented. I try to play as quietly as I can get away with on stage and let the FOH do it's job. The compliment I want to hear isn't great sounding bass... I want to hear great sounding band, love the harmonies, are you guys available... You get the idea. If another bassist compliments my playing I'm really pleased but pleased does not pay for gas...
Having been on both sides of the board i gotta say that chatty, needy musicians can dive you friggen' nutzo... Gear talk ? Seriously ? I have a stage plot to work - you did provide a stage plot ahead of the gig didn't you ? At least an input list ? No ? Well in that case there is even less time for chat ... After that we need to be sure the lead vocalist and backup singers are happy and the rest of the band isn't driving the volume beyond the physics of attaining a decent monitor mix... At a certain point, as a sound guy you have to work with what you have and the limits of physics. Hopefully the subject band will allow that to happen without undue pain... You would be simply amazed at the number who seem to want to make it a challenge.
Personally I carry a DI that sound guys are going to be comfortable with. It comes before my amp. My amp is a stage monitor. I am very vocal oriented. I try to play as quietly as I can get away with on stage and let the FOH do it's job. The compliment I want to hear isn't great sounding bass... I want to hear great sounding band, love the harmonies, are you guys available... You get the idea. If another bassist compliments my playing I'm really pleased but pleased does not pay for gas...
Having been on both sides of the board i gotta say that chatty, needy musicians can dive you friggen' nutzo... Gear talk ? Seriously ? I have a stage plot to work - you did provide a stage plot ahead of the gig didn't you ? At least an input list ? No ? Well in that case there is even less time for chat ... After that we need to be sure the lead vocalist and backup singers are happy and the rest of the band isn't driving the volume beyond the physics of attaining a decent monitor mix... At a certain point, as a sound guy you have to work with what you have and the limits of physics. Hopefully the subject band will allow that to happen without undue pain... You would be simply amazed at the number who seem to want to make it a challenge.
Hi,
We have the same philosophy. When there's full sound on the gig I bring my smallest rig. Almost every sound guy we have ever worked with has said to the band, "You guys are easy." I think that's a very nice compliment.
Thank you for your indulgence,
BassCliff
We have the same philosophy. When there's full sound on the gig I bring my smallest rig. Almost every sound guy we have ever worked with has said to the band, "You guys are easy." I think that's a very nice compliment.
Thank you for your indulgence,
BassCliff
Nothing irritates me more than sound guys that roll off all high and mid requencies on the bass because "hey, it's a BASS." Then because the bass is "too loud" they turn it down. So you either get a muffled mess or no sound at all from the bass. The frightening part is how often I see this.
1 I do both (play bass and run sound for other bands). Here's the thing. The sound guy is there to please whomever PAID him. If it is a multi-band show, usually the PROMOTER pays him, and THAT is who he works for. If it is a house system, and the sound guy is getting paid by the club owner, then the CLUB OWNER is who he is there to please. And, yes, if he is being paid by the BAND, then the BAND is his customer.
Everyone on this forum is in customer service of some kind. Remember that first.
2) OP, here's the thing. I'm assuming you are correct in that your tone is amazing. However, MOST who think their tone is amazing are simply wrong. That being said, I always go back to "1". If you (your band) are my customer, I will blast your crap tone as loud as you want it. However, if the club owner or a promoter is my customer, you and I are going to have a talk (most likely and argument unfortunately) about your tone if it is awful, and I will almost always win. Why? Because I don't work for you and I don't have time to care what you think. The first attempt, I will try to be nice and simply work with you as much as I can. But if your tone sucks, and you try to stand there and argue with me about "your tone" you will calmly be told you can either work with me, or I can assure you that nobody will here you at all.
OP reminds me of a saying I heard once.
"It is better to be silent and thought an idiot than to open ones mouth and remove all doubt"
"It is better to be silent and thought an idiot than to open ones mouth and remove all doubt"
LMAO..2 fingers ive been doing sound playing bass and guitar 30 years so what.You remind me of the soundguys most guys hate.This is how i picture your approach one of the band guys ask for a bit more monitor you respond."Listen you low life lead singer guy your not paying me so f#$% off who do you think you are im 2 fingers i work for the promoter".....Yeah Yeah Yeah ...
You are the only person in this whole thread that doesn't think your idea is stupid. Maybe your tone isn't so great after all so you hope the soundman will give you some validation.
- Oct 18, 2012
- 6,683
- 5,538
- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: Fender, Spector, Ampeg, Curt Mangan, Nordstrand Pickups, Korg , Conquest Sound
Really?
I have run sound many times for other bands. The sound man's primary function is to make the band sound good. The vast majority of the time, if the sound man does a good job, the band will be happy. If the band doesn't sound good, nobody will be happy.
The sound man's job is half technical and half political. He has to do his job and keep everyone happy, and he is the only one whom audience members can approach and complain to.
I agree with you there. It's nice if the band is happy but in no way is it the sound man's responsibility. Also not in his job description is stroking fragile egos.
* The above DOES NOT apply to sound men employed by a band.
