My preamp journey

[DirkP]

Ah, thanks. I don't see me ever returning to rack gear, so y'all can have fun with that

My comment about studio-gear like mic-preamps and comps was related to recording. For playing live, I wouldn't consider a rack until the day I can easily afford three roadies But even if I could, I don't know if I would go this route.
But there were some signs of offering studio-like gear for playing live like the API Tranzformer series and the 1176-like pedals from Cali/Origin effects during the last decade. Their first comp pedal even had a transformer.

If it is only about playing live, I don't get that passion about bass-preamps either, like I wrote above: most of the times you go through a PA anyway and if the engineer/FOH guy understands what you want, it is in her hands anyway and you will be better off just offering them your dry bass signal. I just inform the FOH guy that I use an 1176 type of comp and that he should consider this, before just applying his typical dose of bass compression on his desk.
But I think it would be bad advice to offer the FOH guy an already eq manipulated signal just because you think it sounds good, where you stand.
You're not at the audience place like the FOH guy.

When playing in smaller clubs, where only the vocals might go through the PA, it is hard to judge how you sound for the audience. Definetely not like you sound a few feet away from your amp. In these cases I just use my Marbkbass amp and I am happy to be wireless, so I can kind of manage the band mix, standing 90 feet away from the stage. But it is always a compromise between hearing yourself, not to disturb other musicians and sounding good and having an adequate volume for the audience. And the room will sound much different when it is crowded.
Considering these heavy tasks when not going through a PA, I don't know how any fancy preamp should improve anything. The position and angle of the amp, the room, the distances are far more important.


- I have to admit that I never mic my amp and this might be the reason for my different approach: I'm simply don't play metal or hard rock at all.-

 

[Jim C]

Ah, thanks. I don't see me ever returning to rack gear, so y'all can have fun with that

I've been saying that for years yet somehow I just ordered a used CA-6. Will probably use it with a tube Ampeg pre but also have some rack mount parametrics kicking around too.
So cheap on the used market that I'll get to satisfy my curiosity and then maybe get $100 on the flip.

 

[moon-bass]

My comment about studio-gear like mic-preamps and comps was related to recording. For playing live, I wouldn't consider a rack until the day I can easily afford three roadies But even if I could, I don't know if I would go this route.
But there were some signs of offering studio-like gear for playing live like the API Tranzformer series and the 1176-like pedals from Cali/Origin effects during the last decade. Their first comp pedal even had a transformer.

If it is only about playing live, I don't get that passion about bass-preamps either, like I wrote above: most of the times you go through a PA anyway and if the engineer/FOH guy understands what you want, it is in her hands anyway and you will be better off just offering them your dry bass signal. I just inform the FOH guy that I use an 1176 type of comp and that he should consider this, before just applying his typical dose of bass compression on his desk.
But I think it would be bad advice to offer the FOH guy an already eq manipulated signal just because you think it sounds good, where you stand.
You're not at the audience place like the FOH guy.

When playing in smaller clubs, where only the vocals might go through the PA, it is hard to judge how you sound for the audience. Definetely not like you sound a few feet away from your amp. In these cases I just use my Marbkbass amp and I am happy to be wireless, so I can kind of manage the band mix, standing 90 feet away from the stage. But it is always a compromise between hearing yourself, not to disturb other musicians and sounding good and having an adequate volume for the audience. And the room will sound much different when it is crowded.
Considering these heavy tasks when not going through a PA, I don't know how any fancy preamp should improve anything. The position and angle of the amp, the room, the distances are far more important.


- I have to admit that I never mic my amp and this might be the reason for my different approach: I'm simply don't play metal or hard rock at all.-

Man, all I can say is that you don't play the same places that I do. I appreciate your perspective and reasoning, but my experience is pretty far removed from yours. Where I'm playing now, and tbh pretty much my entire playing experience, , a good preamp makes a world of difference. I can't imagine my bass signal being so dull as just to plugging into FOH with my bass, a DI, and nothing else. Maybe 20 years ago.

 

[el murdoque]

If it is only about playing live, I don't get that passion about bass-preamps either, like I wrote above: most of the times you go through a PA anyway and if the engineer/FOH guy understands what you want, it is in her hands anyway and you will be better off just offering them your dry bass signal. I just inform the FOH guy that I use an 1176 type of comp and that he should consider this, before just applying his typical dose of bass compression on his desk.
But I think it would be bad advice to offer the FOH guy an already eq manipulated signal just because you think it sounds good, where you stand.
You're not at the audience place like the FOH guy.

Man, all I can say is that you don't play the same places that I do. I appreciate your perspective and reasoning, but my experience is pretty far removed from yours. Where I'm playing now, and tbh pretty much my entire playing experience, , a good preamp makes a world of difference. I can't imagine my bass signal being so dull as just to plugging into FOH with my bass, a DI, and nothing else. Maybe 20 years ago.

IMHO there's truth in both positions.
My approach lies somewhere in the middle - it is an art to provide a signal for FOH that works right out of the box. I use a comp as peak limiter and HPF+LPF to get rid of the unwanted frequencies, so that's pretty easy already. The rest is a compromise - I can't use the settings I'd like to have on my IEM, because that would overwhelm FOH, but a little EQ, tastefully applied, makes all the difference. When all you have to do is set the gain for the channel and your result will already be good, that's a win/win more often than not.

 

[Jim C]

I can't imagine my bass signal being so dull as just to plugging into FOH with my bass, a DI, and nothing else. Maybe 20 years ago.

I've never had much trouble getting a great bass sound back in the day with something like a Countryman DI, a decent player (and instrument), and assuming a good PA.
While I love to encourage younger players (like opening bands) to develop THEIR sound, I hesitate to come out of a MI amp post EQ exclusively as if they get squirrely onstage with EQ, I'm F'd as a FoH guy.
Agreed that decent sound sculpting is very important for onstage sound and quite honestly, I've worked 100 - 350 seat shows where the bass is so loud onstage, it was never in the PA to begin with.

But these days, I play small clubs and bar gigs in front of 100 people and the PA covers vocals only.
This is where I need the most adjustments for EQ. I always thought that the V4B / SVT tone stack, while ancient, really worked pretty well for problem rooms before guys like SWR and others started offering quasi parametric EQ's.

 

[kevmac]

Yeah, so I seem to have forgotten the Smoke Signal preamp pending from @Sushi Box FX ... The GAS continues!

You have some more goodies in mind I see.Yeah I know it's neverending.My latest acuities being the Super 300 and Sunday Drive X and while both are great I'm still eyeing the Super 800 along with some other Sushi Box offerings.Tell me though, I was under the impression that the Doc Watson is more of a guitar preamp.I could be wrong.

 

[moon-bass]

assuming a good PA.

There's the rub. I can't tell you how many places that I have played at with a crappy PA. Not to mention the fact that my synth and envelope filter need to go to foh as well.

 

[moon-bass]

You have some more goodies in mind I see.Yeah I know it's neverending.My latest acuities being the Super 300 and Sunday Drive X and while both are great I'm still eyeing the Super 800 along with some other Sushi Box offerings.Tell me though, I was under the impression that the Doc Watson is more of a guitar preamp.I could be wrong.

Doc Watson can go both ways. The preamp that it's based on has historically gone both ways (guitar and bass).

How is the Sunday Drive? I find that I just like to try everything. The Super 800 is great, but the more I play thru it the more remember why I sold my GK 800 and Plex in the first place.

The fun is in the journey as well!! I absolutely love trying all the preamps and effects as of late, and it's filled a whole in my life from lack of playing during quarantine.

 

[moon-bass]

IMHO there's truth in both positions

In my 30+ years of playing bass, I've done both more times than I can count. Thousands upon thousands of gigs, and I've developed a strong preference for the way I do things, it works very well for me, and I don't need a lecture on the ways things work. If bass>di>foh works for someone, that's great, but everyone is different and I don't dismiss someone else's valid points because they don't match mine.

 

[cavemanbass]

Perhaps a dumb question, but what's the 500 series?

500 series is a format for processors that was invented by API back in the '60s. Has really taken off in the past 10 years or so. Bears very little resemblance to the 19" rack gear we're all familiar with - it's much more than a rack, and also less...
The core of 500 series is a chassis with power supply. Modules are built to specified dimensions, and audio as well as power connections are via an edge connector at the back of the module, which plugs into a backplane on the chassis. Sort of like a PCI slot on a computer.

For size comparison, here is a six space chassis next to a pedal train mini. This chassis will sit on top of an amp or powered speaker very easily, where a 19" rack would be a struggle. BtW the modules here are: tube pre/DI - optical comp - 4 band eq with variable H/LPF - Fet comp.
This particular chassis allows internal routing of audio signal from left to right, so there's no patch cables sticking out the back. Just one IEC cable for power, my bass plugs in the DI/Pre from the front, and one xlr cable to carry the output to my DAW or a speaker system.
Being pro audio, the module cost can get crazy expensive, but the 500 version of a processor is usually a lot less than the equivalent 19" rack unit from the same manufacturer. High end stuff from API, SSL, Neve, RND, Pulltec and lots of others available. But there's also low cost modules being made by Warm Audio, Golden Age, Lindell, Midas, DBX and more. I just found a used 6 space rack with pre, Fet comp, and EQ for $550 on Reverb; could easily spend way more than that on pedals (should probably say that I have spent way more than that..).

 

[moon-bass]

500 series is a format for processors that was invented by API back in the '60s. Has really taken off in the past 10 years or so. Bears very little resemblance to the 19" rack gear we're all familiar with - it's much more than a rack, and also less...
The core of 500 series is a chassis with power supply. Modules are built to specified dimensions, and audio as well as power connections are via an edge connector at the back of the module, which plugs into a backplane on the chassis. Sort of like a PCI slot on a computer.
View attachment 4417971
For size comparison, here is a six space chassis next to a pedal train mini. This chassis will sit on top of an amp or powered speaker very easily, where a 19" rack would be a struggle. BtW the modules here are: tube pre/DI - optical comp - 4 band eq with variable H/LPF - Fet comp.
This particular chassis allows internal routing of audio signal from left to right, so there's no patch cables sticking out the back. Just one IEC cable for power, my bass plugs in the DI/Pre from the front, and one xlr cable to carry the output to my DAW or a speaker system.
Being pro audio, the module cost can get crazy expensive, but the 500 version of a processor is usually a lot less than the equivalent 19" rack unit from the same manufacturer. High end stuff from API, SSL, Neve, RND, Pulltec and lots of others available. But there's also low cost modules being made by Warm Audio, Golden Age, Lindell, Midas, DBX and more. I just found a used 6 space rack with pre, Fet comp, and EQ for $550 on Reverb; could easily spend way more than that on pedals (should probably say that I have spent way more than that..).

Thank for the info. The thing to me, if you can fit it inside a 500 series module looks like you can fit it into a pedal

 

[kevmac]

Doc Watson can go both ways. The preamp that it's based on has historically gone both ways (guitar and bass).

How is the Sunday Drive? I find that I just like to try everything. The Super 800 is great, but the more I play thru it the more remember why I sold my GK 800 and Plex in the first place.

The fun is in the journey as well!! I absolutely love trying all the preamps and effects as of late, and it's filled a whole in my life from lack of playing during quarantine.

The Sunday Driver X is cool little number. Very warm and can get very hairy if that's your thing.Lots of gain if you want it and a responsive EQ section.The closest thing l can compare it to is maybe in the Orange AD200 territory. I also have had too much time on my hands during lockdown.I've never shopped like so much.That said have you checked the Laney Black Country Customs bass FXs? "The 85" bass interval octaver is one of the best I've heard.

 

[moon-bass]

The Sunday Driver X is cool little number. Very warm and can get very hairy if that's your thing.Lots of gain if you want it and a responsive EQ section.The closest thing l can compare it to is maybe in the Orange AD200 territory. I also have had too much time on my hands during lockdown.I've never shopped like so much.That said have you checked the Laney Black Country Customs bass FXs? "The 85" bass interval octaver is one of the best I've heard.

I have not heard of them and I just happen to be looking for an octave pedal .. thanks for the heads up!

 

[gtirard]

Thank for the info. The thing to me, if you can fit it inside a 500 series module looks like you can fit it into a pedal

Yes, but there's something great in the 500 series: audio routing and power provided by the main unit.

Now imagine a new standard for pedals, that you would plug into a special pedalboard, and the pedalboard would provide the power to each pedal and route the signal from left to right. Each pedal would have to be adapted to this new standard, replacing the classic jack and power plugs by special plugs, but you would get the benefits from the 500 series and the benefits of a classic pedalboard. I know it's very naive, but fun to imagine…

Sorry for the crappy drawing, hope it illustrates the idea:

 

[kevmac]

Yes, but there's something great in the 500 series: audio routing and power provided by the main unit.

Now imagine a new standard for pedals, that you would plug into a special pedalboard, and the pedalboard would provide the power to each pedal and route the signal from left to right. Each pedal would have to be adapted to this new standard, replacing the classic jack and power plugs by special plugs, but you would get the benefits from the 500 series and the benefits of a classic pedalboard. I know it's very naive, but fun to imagine…

Sorry for the crappy drawing, hope it illustrates the idea:
View attachment 4418146

For the life of me I can't recall the name (maybe Earthboards?) But I'm sure. They had a design very much in line what you've come up with.The board came with a number of power modules and extras could be bought if needed.It eliminated the need for a power supply and the number of cords.It was very intriguing and I definitely would be interested if not for the extreme number of boards and power supplies I possess.

 

[cavemanbass]

Thank for the info. The thing to me, if you can fit it inside a 500 series module looks like you can fit it into a pedal

not sure of your point here - because pedals are similar size, they must have the same quality design and components as 500 modules? Aside from the size there's also balanced v. unbalanced, and instrument v. +4 dBU. My Cali76tx is big enough to house two 500 modules, but it doesn't sound as good as the BAC 500 FET compressor, to my ears. Clearly not a popular opinion here on TB, I'll let y'all get back to your regular programming.

 

[moon-bass]

not sure of your point here - because pedals are similar size, they must have the same quality design and components as 500 modules? Aside from the size there's also balanced v. unbalanced, and instrument v. +4 dBU. My Cali76tx is big enough to house two 500 modules, but it doesn't sound as good as the BAC 500 FET compressor, to my ears. Clearly not a popular opinion here on TB, I'll let y'all get back to your regular programming.

I'm saying that it's not a size thing, or a pedal thing, or a rack thing. I'm saying that high quality components can exist in multiple formats and anyone that dismisses a preamp just because it's a pedal is using bad logic. I'm sure there are good and bad 500 modules the same as with pedals. I have no opinion one way or the other on the 500 series other than I'm not going back to rack equipment so I have no interest in it, but I can definitely see how it may interest some ppl, popular opinion or not. I'm a out as qualified to give an opinion on the 500 series as someone who never tried a high end pedal preamp is to give an opinion on that.

I try not to jump to conclusions without solid reasoning behind it.

To each their own and the more the merrier imo.

 

[Jim C]

I've spent the weekend looking at old TB searches about pre-amps. I think if you are using a 19" rack mount power amp, 19" preamps make the most sense. The other issue we all face is that some pedals just don't drive power amps well, or even the effects returns of some MI amps.

After experimenting with pedals, as well as using the preamp out or effects return in on two SWR's and a GK MBF, as well as testing against some rackmount pre's, I've found that the amps input sensitivity can also change tone. A weakish signal from preamp X going to a 1.5 V power amp input is not the same as when things are more closely gain matched. This is of course true with PA style power amps and one of the big attractions with Crest is that they are set up for .775V right out of the box. Many Crown and QSC amps also have variable input sensitivities from .775 to 1.5 and above.

I also wonder if impedance(s) makes a difference with different pre/power rigs with tone?
Biggest surprise? An ancient Behringer parametric EQ sound great with the CA6! Even better than their much newer parametric with more features. I wonder if it was because the older one has the ability to have shelving EQ on the top and bottom band (which I preferred in this case).

There is also a tube pre that was surprisingly not great sounding but I'm still testing
And what about an SWR SM400 vs. that same preamp and the CA6?
I think I could repeatedly select the CA6 blindfolded but only if I was playing solo in a room without a band.
The cool thing that was immediate was I didn't need the HPF! The Crest took care of most of the SWR low end issues on it's own. The Crest just seemed a little bit clearer and the notes feel fuller and with more authority.
I'll be curious to see where this testing goes and if I can tell the difference in a band mix.

Pickup one of my Ampeg tube pre's from rehearsal on Tuesday night.

 

[moon-bass]

Pickup one of my Ampeg tube pre's from rehearsal on Tuesday night.

The Ampeg SVP-PRO is one of my favorite rack preamps of all time, second only to the Fender TBP.

 

[TonyP-]

Sansamp BDDI v2 - hate it

Interesting...
I noticed not a lot of talk about the BDDI in this thread.

What was it that you did not like about it? Just curious....