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My regret as a bass player

#142
My opinion: bake the cake first, then add the frosting on top.

My issue with what JimmyM is trying to state is that some kids are going to read this and think they should just focus on shredding and lose out on learning to be a solid, reliable bass player. Just because they're roots and fifths doesn't mean it'll take you a week to learn how to play them. It's a lifetime endeavor to be the player everyone wants to hire. You should be serving the song, not your ego. Otherwise, pick up a guitar and learn to solo.
 
#144
Lost of good stuff there Jimmy...

JimmyM said:
So here's a thread I could only start late at night after one of my gigs...

When I was a kid just starting on bass in the 70's, I didn't want to be someone who sat in the back pounding out roots. Still don't, either. I wanted to sing and I wanted to play my ass off. When it came to bass player influences, back then I was all about John Entwistle, Chris Squire, Mel Schacher, Bootsy, Ronnie Lane, Gary Thain, Louis Johnson, Mars Cowling...all the players who demanded attention be called to their great bass playing. Later in my teens, I expanded to jazzier guys like Stanley Clarke, Andy West, Jaco, etc. Loved punk rock and butt rock as well, but was way more interested in Bruce Thomas and Graham Maby than I was Dee Dee Ramone, though I've always had a special fondness for Cliff Williams and Gene Simmons. But for the music I wanted to make, I wanted to use effects, I wanted to be loud, and I wanted to be entertaining and fun to watch.

Then I got out into the world of trying to find bands to play out. I'd jam with people and I'd get, "You play really well but you overplay," or "We're not looking for a lead bassist" or "Can't you just play the song and quit hopping around?" My favorite, though, was when I'd write songs and show them to everyone else, and they'd say, "Sounds like a bass player wrote these songs."

Wow, cold reality slapping me in the face with a dead fish! I determined that I wasn't going to get anywhere by being an awesome shredder (or whatever we called it back then), and I would strive to overcome the overplaying rap I had with being a dependable bassist who played the cover songs like they're supposed to be played and wrote songs that didn't feature the bass playing so much. I ended up staying fairly busy most of the time and it was cool.

But over time, and it took me a long time to realize it, I lost the qualities that made me unique and fun to listen to when I was just starting out, and I got assimilated into the Borg. I tried to write people-pleasing songs that sounded like whatever was current in rock and roll, and none of them had the flashy bass playing of the earliest stuff I did when I was trying to please myself above all else. As a result, nothing I did stood out from the pack, and it was all just OK and kind of boring and was treated as such by audiences.

Meanwhile, a whole slew of bassists with flashy chops who stuck to their guns were the ones really getting out there and making a name for themselves professionally. And by the time I realized I lost the spark, well let's face it...nobody was looking for me at my age. And now at 52, I still love and play music and have a lot of fun doing it and my band is quite well-respected on the 50's-60's-70's oldies circuit, but it only occasionally requires chops playing, and there are a few thousand bass players out there who can play bass in my stead, though if I whittle out the bass players who can't sing good harmonies and a decent lead, we're down to maybe a couple thousand.

Why am I spilling my guts like this? It's because I know some kids with talent and a dream like I once had are coming onto Talkbass every day, and one day they're going to post something about wanting to be unique and play in a unique style that's different from the norm. And I know the Bass Borg on here is going to tell them that they need to settle down, learn how to play simple repetitive lines, and know their role as a bass player.

And kids, if you're reading this, I want you to completely disregard anything they have to say about bass playing from there on out. I'll be the first to tell a young bass player that if they can't play "Back In Black" or "No Ordinary Love" without a solid groove that their work developing into a great bass player is far from over. I'll also be the first to tell them the realities of getting a paycheck from playing music, and that is if you're looking for people to hire you, give them what they want in return for the money you want or they will find someone else.

But you know what? When you're on your own time, you can do whatever the heck you want. No law says you can't do two or more bands at once. No law says you can't make yourself the star attraction. Pursue your vision to its fullest no matter whether it's being a solid dependable bassist in someone's working cover band or writing and recording the music in your head no matter how out there it may seem to some. Search for like minded musicians that are as interested in your vision as you are. If you can't find like minded musicians, do it yourself. Learn to play and program other instruments, or just do it all with your bass if you'd rather. And don't make any apologies about wanting to be a badass, stay true to your vision, and most of all, ignore those bass players who tell you how you should be playing.

If I could do one thing over again, I would have never made apologies about wanting to be a badass. The music business is such that I likely would have ended up right where I'm at anyway, but I'll never know now. So as I close in on AARP membership, I'm going to follow my own advice. Not quitting my gig or anything, but off the gig, I'm going to have fun with making my own music my own way for my own self-gratification. And I won't ever reach Bieber status with it but it's going to be one of a kind, and all of the soul-sucking forces out there who think I should fulfill their idea of what I should be doing as a bass player can suck their own souls. And if my music is polarizing and a lot of people don't like it, I will remind myself that there are 5000 bass players who could be the bass player with Bieber, but there is only one Les Claypool. It's pretty much a given that I won't ever reach Claypool status, but I will have fun making music my own way, and that's all he ever cared about, and that's all I care about.

So if there's one piece of advice I could pass along to bass players whose vision of music is unique and different and doesn't fulfill the typical bass "role," it's this (cue stirring marching music)...

The odds of you being a famous musician are astronomically against you no matter what you do, but if you have something that makes you unique, you will at least be the only person in the world from which they can get your special brand of music delivered in a style only you can deliver. Do what you feel you must in order to pay the bills, but pursue that uniqueness to its fullest whenever you can, have as much fun as humanly possible with it, and don't ever lose it no matter who tells you it's no good and won't sell. You can be one of a kind or one of many. It's up to you.
Click to expand...
 
#145
Great post man. Reminds me alot of the choices I made with my life. I quit playing for 16 years and now I look at some of the younger guys, or even guys around my age, who have made names for themselves and really regret the time I lost because I was foolish because I could have been right in the mix.

"I coulda been a contendah" haha.
 
#146
Yes, well written and seems to have hit a nerve

but, I will say, I don't look at any playing experience with regret. There are times when you're JUST the bassman and there are times when you are the BASSMAN

58 here with a looong career - mostly a ways back - lots of great times

maybe it's because I often was a founder or the BL with lots of input in the planning etc
 
#150
Milk said:
Nah, garageband and knowing more or less what you're doing is all you need to record anything nowadays (it doesn't have to be garageband either, there's actually better programs but it's probably the most user friendly). Some years ago i was in a band. The "frontman" was a bit stupid and decided we needed a record before we had even gigged. Anyway, he invested a lot of his own money in studio time. The stuff we ended up with, production wise, was as good or actually probably worse than what i can achieve with just an old mac (paid 200$ for) and garageband now.

I see no point in investing in a studio unless you're a professional (making a living of it i mean). Just this year my grandfather passed away, he had spent years building his own studio (he played Chet Atkins type stuff). When me and my guitar playing cousin split the stuff he had, a lot of it we didn't even know what to do with. We had no use for a lot of it, a lot of gear was easily replaceable by a computer with the right software nowadays.
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I will be recording at home myself. I have a Fast Track 2-channel interface, a REDDI, a couple mics, a handful of instruments, some effects, some software, the vast majority of which is freeware and shareware, and the ability to program instruments I can't record for real. I won't be spending a dime on studio time. Unless you're recording drums, a full band at once, or a symphony orchestra, I don't see the point in it. I can sit here and do take after take all day with no watching the clock, and I can mix till the cows come home, then go get a snack. And I can do it in my underwear, even though I usually don't ;)

But pay money to record music that nobody's going to buy anyway? No thank you!
 
#151
JimmyM said:
I will be recording at home myself. I have a Fast Track 2-channel interface, a REDDI, a couple mics, a handful of instruments, some effects, some software, the vast majority of which is freeware and shareware, and the ability to program instruments I can't record for real. I won't be spending a dime on studio time. Unless you're recording drums, a full band at once, or a symphony orchestra, I don't see the point in it. I can sit here and do take after take all day with no watching the clock, and I can mix till the cows come home, then go get a snack. And I can do it in my underwear, even though I usually don't ;)

But pay money to record music that nobody's going to buy anyway? No thank you!
Click to expand...

You're my hero jimmy haha

I've attempted doing this before. Just never stuck to it. This had def gave me some inspiration. Thanks!
 
#152
JimmyM said:
So here's a thread I could only start late at night after one of my gigs...

When I was a kid just starting on bass in the 70's, I didn't want to be someone who sat in the back pounding out roots. Still don't, either. I wanted to sing and I wanted to play my ass off. When it came to bass player influences, back then I was all about John Entwistle, Chris Squire, Mel Schacher, Bootsy, Ronnie Lane, Gary Thain, Louis Johnson, Mars Cowling...all the players who demanded attention be called to their great bass playing. Later in my teens, I expanded to jazzier guys like Stanley Clarke, Andy West, Jaco, etc. Loved punk rock and butt rock as well, but was way more interested in Bruce Thomas and Graham Maby than I was Dee Dee Ramone, though I've always had a special fondness for Cliff Williams and Gene Simmons. But for the music I wanted to make, I wanted to use effects, I wanted to be loud, and I wanted to be entertaining and fun to watch.

Then I got out into the world of trying to find bands to play out. I'd jam with people and I'd get, "You play really well but you overplay," or "We're not looking for a lead bassist" or "Can't you just play the song and quit hopping around?" My favorite, though, was when I'd write songs and show them to everyone else, and they'd say, "Sounds like a bass player wrote these songs."

Wow, cold reality slapping me in the face with a dead fish! I determined that I wasn't going to get anywhere by being an awesome shredder (or whatever we called it back then), and I would strive to overcome the overplaying rap I had with being a dependable bassist who played the cover songs like they're supposed to be played and wrote songs that didn't feature the bass playing so much. I ended up staying fairly busy most of the time and it was cool.

But over time, and it took me a long time to realize it, I lost the qualities that made me unique and fun to listen to when I was just starting out, and I got assimilated into the Borg. I tried to write people-pleasing songs that sounded like whatever was current in rock and roll, and none of them had the flashy bass playing of the earliest stuff I did when I was trying to please myself above all else. As a result, nothing I did stood out from the pack, and it was all just OK and kind of boring and was treated as such by audiences.

Meanwhile, a whole slew of bassists with flashy chops who stuck to their guns were the ones really getting out there and making a name for themselves professionally. And by the time I realized I lost the spark, well let's face it...nobody was looking for me at my age. And now at 52, I still love and play music and have a lot of fun doing it and my band is quite well-respected on the 50's-60's-70's oldies circuit, but it only occasionally requires chops playing, and there are a few thousand bass players out there who can play bass in my stead, though if I whittle out the bass players who can't sing good harmonies and a decent lead, we're down to maybe a couple thousand.

Why am I spilling my guts like this? It's because I know some kids with talent and a dream like I once had are coming onto Talkbass every day, and one day they're going to post something about wanting to be unique and play in a unique style that's different from the norm. And I know the Bass Borg on here is going to tell them that they need to settle down, learn how to play simple repetitive lines, and know their role as a bass player.

And kids, if you're reading this, I want you to completely disregard anything they have to say about bass playing from there on out. I'll be the first to tell a young bass player that if they can't play "Back In Black" or "No Ordinary Love" without a solid groove that their work developing into a great bass player is far from over. I'll also be the first to tell them the realities of getting a paycheck from playing music, and that is if you're looking for people to hire you, give them what they want in return for the money you want or they will find someone else.

But you know what? When you're on your own time, you can do whatever the heck you want. No law says you can't do two or more bands at once. No law says you can't make yourself the star attraction. Pursue your vision to its fullest no matter whether it's being a solid dependable bassist in someone's working cover band or writing and recording the music in your head no matter how out there it may seem to some. Search for like minded musicians that are as interested in your vision as you are. If you can't find like minded musicians, do it yourself. Learn to play and program other instruments, or just do it all with your bass if you'd rather. And don't make any apologies about wanting to be a badass, stay true to your vision, and most of all, ignore those bass players who tell you how you should be playing.

If I could do one thing over again, I would have never made apologies about wanting to be a badass. The music business is such that I likely would have ended up right where I'm at anyway, but I'll never know now. So as I close in on AARP membership, I'm going to follow my own advice. Not quitting my gig or anything, but off the gig, I'm going to have fun with making my own music my own way for my own self-gratification. And I won't ever reach Bieber status with it but it's going to be one of a kind, and all of the soul-sucking forces out there who think I should fulfill their idea of what I should be doing as a bass player can suck their own souls. And if my music is polarizing and a lot of people don't like it, I will remind myself that there are 5000 bass players who could be the bass player with Bieber, but there is only one Les Claypool. It's pretty much a given that I won't ever reach Claypool status, but I will have fun making music my own way, and that's all he ever cared about, and that's all I care about.

So if there's one piece of advice I could pass along to bass players whose vision of music is unique and different and doesn't fulfill the typical bass "role," it's this (cue stirring marching music)...

The odds of you being a famous musician are astronomically against you no matter what you do, but if you have something that makes you unique, you will at least be the only person in the world from which they can get your special brand of music delivered in a style only you can deliver. Do what you feel you must in order to pay the bills, but pursue that uniqueness to its fullest whenever you can, have as much fun as humanly possible with it, and don't ever lose it no matter who tells you it's no good and won't sell. You can be one of a kind or one of many. It's up to you.
Click to expand...

Great Post!
 
#153
JimmyM said:
But what really bums me out the most is when bass players, the ones who should be respecting another player's individuality and skill the most, tell kids starting out on here to forget about being fancy and just stick to meat and potatoes. It's like they're crushing someone's else's dreams because their dreams got crushed. Shame on them, too.
Click to expand...

You mean conformists who tell you how to play, what kind of tone you should be looking for, what effects or gauge of strings you should not use, and so on and so forth. Sadly, that describes a massive chunk of bassists worldwide...
 
#154
Wow, I never knew there was a bass borg or this mass herding of sheep bass players.

Someone telling you that you "have" to follow 1 path is simply ridiculous.

I came up around the same time as Jimmy, played Metal all over the world, with stints playing Jazz when I had time. We worked between 300 and 350 nights a year.

I learned through common sense that the best musicians in working bands "played the song", this is how you kept busy and made a living, but I also learned that the best players in these working bands had extensive chops and could play many styles from common to incredibly intricate soloing. You have to know what direction you want to follow. Doing your own thing is totally gratifying, and will limit your work. Playing in a real working band can limit your creativity live but keep your wallet stocked with greenbacks. A good balance of both will give you most of both worlds so you dont starve, and your not stifled into a box.

Like Jimmy posed ... "follow your muse"
 
#156
max_overdrive said:
You mean conformists who tell you how to play, what kind of tone you should be looking for, what effects or gauge of strings you should not use, and so on and so forth. Sadly, that describes a massive chunk of bassists worldwide...
Click to expand...

Welcome to the world of a sideman, aka an employee.

When you're working for someone else, very often they may want something specific from you. And there is a long line of bassists who have done great work with a very simple formula: Fender basses run clean with straight-forward amplification, etc. And artists, producers, music directors and recording engineers have this well engrained into their minds.

More experienced players are imparting this same mindset into younger players because they've tried to fight this fight. They've tried impressing the people who are hiring them with cool, innovative gear. But invariably those employers are very often "hearing with their eyes" and wonder why their bass player isn't playing a P-Bass with flats through an Ampeg B-15. The simple truth is that artists, producers, engineers and music directors aren't checking out what's hot on Talkbass, in BP magazine or any of the other bass publications. They just know what they know, and they may generally think that for them the simplest avenue is very often the best one.

I think when you cease being a sideman/employee and become the artist, you'll probably face fewer judgements and questions about your style and gear. Call it cynical if you will. I think it's more realistic than anything else to know where the people who are seeking out your talents are coming from.
 
#157
Shoe, I wasn't really talking about other musicians looking to hire bassists or the equipment bassists use. It's a given that if you're a sideman, you do what the person who hired you wants or you won't have a gig. I was talking about bassists doing it to each other. I go to the education and technique forums on here, someone will ask a question about slap or tapping or something else in that vein, next thing you know, there are a million people telling them to quit doing it and play "real" bass, whatever the hell that is. That's the kind of nonsense I'm talking about.

We all make our own stylistic choices, and that's cool. What's not cool is telling some kid to quit trying to better him or herself by learning these styles that they don't like. Everyone once in a while, someone will ask what they feel the bass' role in a band is, and my answer is always, "The role of bass in a band is whatever the hell I want it to be."
 
#158
JimmyM said:
Shoe, I wasn't really talking about other musicians looking to hire bassists or the equipment bassists use. It's a given that if you're a sideman, you do what the person who hired you wants or you won't have a gig. I was talking about bassists doing it to each other. I go to the education and technique forums on here, someone will ask a question about slap or tapping or something else in that vein, next thing you know, there are a million people telling them to quit doing it and play "real" bass, whatever the hell that is. That's the kind of nonsense I'm talking about.

We all make our own stylistic choices, and that's cool. What's not cool is telling some kid to quit trying to better him or herself by learning these styles that they don't like. Everyone once in a while, someone will ask what they feel the bass' role in a band is, and my answer is always, "The role of bass in a band is whatever the hell I want it to be."
Click to expand...

Totally agree, I love to redefine what can be expected of my part (in a good way) in songs. I slap if I feel like it, I play fretless when I think that would fit best, I use a pick on a semi regular basis and a play chords when I think they will be tasty and fit in with the other instrumentation. I don;t think that makes me a maverick it just means i do what I do first and foremost for me. I do plenty of gigs and I am fine with doing whatever is expected of me if that is what I am being instructed to do by a bandleader but I try to push the boundaries whenever i can and to what ability I can.
 
#159
I get you, Jimmy. I think that the mindset that experienced players have and are passing along has developed BECAUSE of the mindset of their employers. Look at it as a form of Stockholm syndrome, perhaps. These players know what has gotten them work, and perhaps what has cost them work. It's not necessarily right, but the driving interest of keeping gigs can be a serious motivating factor.
 
#160
Thanks Jimmy!!!! Excellent! I am 67 with 45 years experience on stage and have generally marched to my own drummer. Any of us with any experience has had to " tow the line" so to speak at least at some point. Not a bad thing IMO. That's just the game as it is played.

Depending on what point in life I was at, I listened to all criticism re: my playing. As I got older I realized that very little of that criticism was of any use (basically ego driven BS). The good stuff I kept. As it stands today I can discern BS from truth very quickly and I am usually rather vocal about it. One of the TB'ers has this quote on his page, "Don't hand me a pie plate and call it a hummingbird, this ain't my first rodeo son." Perfect and thanks.

Well done Jimmy and play on brother. I plan to.
 

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