myth-busting: Resonance is not synonymous with Vibration

[Killed_by_Death]

What you're talking about is Engineering - when people use things learned from Science to make things that interact with people. That's where getting things right the first time sometimes matters greatly.

You might be an Engineer if you think Physicists don't need to get it accurate & precise.
just got an eMail from a 'sales engineer' that my order has shipped, Yippee!

Your typical "dead spot" is caused by physical resonance.

On that we agree!

 

[micguy]

You might be an Engineer if you think Physicists don't need to get it accurate & precise.
just got an eMail from a 'sales engineer' that my order has shipped, Yippee!

I'm both an Engineer (40 plus years at that profession) and a Physicist (studied that in college). Luckily, the stuff I design (audio gear) doesn't typically hurt anyone.

 

[coyote1]

It is an acceptable use of the word. Some do care, but everyday semantics will not tend to be congruent with scientific terminology. Some people do care and some don’t.

There are all kinds of people in the world, and it’s OK for people to have different opinions and communicate in different ways.

Until you are seeking to transmit actual information. Then it’s not OK to have different ideas of what words signify. You need clarity, and to have clarity you need to have agreement on the correct usage of a word.

Here’s a phrase that drives me bonkers: “theoretically, I could try this and that and see what happens”.
A theory is NOT a guess. The correct word is hypothetically.

Here’s another: “I believe in science”. The moment you describe science in terms of belief, you give license to all those who would - in contexts other than mere banter - give equal credence to, say, 7th Day Adventism and physics in describing the way electrons work in covalent bonds.

So.... word usage is NOT something to take lightly. Unless, that is, you really don’t care about any of these things lol

 

[James Collins]

Resonant FREQUENCY should really be used here in this thread because people are confusing a resonant body with the resonant frequency of the body or parts of the body, the resonant frequency is what sucks the energy out of the particular note (s), any resonant peak in a bass will create a dead spot if it is within the range of and is exactly on or close to a note of the bass, most people don't like this and most bass manufacturers are trying very hard to eliminate resonant peaks.

This thread has also generally disregarded that the resonant frequency is of the entire system including the bass and strings and that it changes depending on what note you are fretting and where which is why you might have a dead not on the C of the G string but not the same note on the D string.

"This bass really resonates well" means that the bass acoustically sounds nice to that particular person or that it has a deep and full tone when amplified among other meanings. Both of those actually do relate to one of the definitions of resonate.

Additionally, if you wanted to be really literal, if a bass "resonates well", it by definition has no dead notes or wolf notes. I don't know what person would play a bass full of dead spots and think, "this bass is resonating well."

 

[Jim C]

It was a shock to me when I returned from Asia. In Thailand you can point out an error to a Thai person & they might correct it or they might ignore you, but they never get violently angry about it.

Years ago I ran a team that did specialty construction work in US embassies overseas. Sometimes we worked with Seabees, sometimes engineers, sometimes security folks, and sometimes the military. None of my guys had any military training but we all learned quickly to thank any team member when mistakes were discovered as it could easily effect the outcome of the mission. Everyone from 6'6" huge construction guys with high school degrees to 5'1" engineers with a PHD were all treated equally. It was all about the team. I would have never left that job other than we were all out of work once the wall came down in 1991. Ne egos, no BS, no one trying to show they were smarter or better. Just a bunch of folks that had a mission ahead and an objective to get their work done perfectly and on schedule. I miss that feeling so much especially when I see idiots on FB or message boards with closed minds or who want to fight over semantics.

 

[BBQisgood]

Until you are seeking to transmit actual information. Then it’s not OK to have different ideas of what words signify. You need clarity, and to have clarity you need to have agreement on the correct usage of a word.

Here’s a phrase that drives me bonkers: “theoretically, I could try this and that and see what happens”.
A theory is NOT a guess. The correct word is hypothetically.

Here’s another: “I believe in science”. The moment you describe science in terms of belief, you give license to all those who would - in contexts other than mere banter - give equal credence to, say, 7th Day Adventism and physics in describing the way electrons work in covalent bonds.

So.... word usage is NOT something to take lightly. Unless, that is, you really don’t care about any of these things lol

 

[coyote1]

There are things to put on your headstock to move the dead spots but I think you have to add a lot of mass, a wolf note is a note that resonantes longer, it's just the opposite of a dead spot I believe but I'm not expert. Supposedly these work but I know nothing about them:

https://www.amazon.com/Fender-0992180100-Fatfinger-Guitar-Nickel/dp/B004WQOFBI

On my guitar, it kinda functions as both. The fundamental of the C fades far more quickly than do other notes, but a high harmonic comes ringing out as the fundamental dies. It’s weird.

In any event I will try a few different fixes until I come up with something... or if it doesn’t work or creates other issues (such as neck dive) I’ll just live with the odd note. It’s noticeable to me when playing, but in chords it’s not that noticeable and in melodies it’s not that noticeable if I don’t linger on C.

 

[coyote1]

View attachment 4039762

Uh huh. But here’s what I’m talking about.

I work in systems. And in coming into a new position, the existing team members used shorthand**. So I was directed to do some work on the ‘demo’. And then left to my own devices .

So I proceeded to begin work on the demonstration/development database.
Two days later I was asked why there was no work done on the demo yet.

What they were seeking was emergency work on the demographic interface into the user acceptance testing environment!

**it’s annoying when people attempt to show they are in the “in crowd” by using shorthand, jargon and acronyms. Often, it takes more effort to say the acronym than to say the phrase for which it stands.... and it definitely gets in the way of effective communication. YMMV lol

 

[Turnaround]

On that we agree!

So to be clear - in the physical sense resonance is a response to vibration. In that sense they are not the same thing, though to make the distinction is a matter of distinguishing between cause and effect. I don't understand why it is a myth. And I entirely disagree that physical resonance is undesirable.

 

[micguy]

Here’s another: “I believe in science”.

Science does involve belief - we're never really completely certain about anything - that's a big part of Science. As I said a few posts before, Newton was "right" for about 250 years, until we got a better idea. One of the worst modern day sentences I've heard is "The science is settled". Anyone who truly knows Science understands that Science is never settled - with convincing evidence of a better, more correct, or more complete idea about how things work, a true scientist will change his or her beliefs.

 

[bobyoung53]

"This bass really resonates well" means that the bass acoustically sounds nice to that particular person or that it has a deep and full tone when amplified among other meanings. Both of those actually do relate to one of the definitions of resonate.

That is why I said we should add the word "frequency' to resonant: "resonant frequency" because the resonant frequency of the system when triggered is what causes dead spots.

I posted this before but if you really want to understand what causes dead spots read this:

ASA/EAA/DAGA '99 - Dead Spots of Electric Guitars and Basses.

 

[-Asdfgh-]

This thread has also generally disregarded that the resonant frequency is of the entire system including the bass and strings and that it changes depending on what note you are fretting and where which is why you might have a dead not on the C of the G string but not the same note on the D string.

"This bass really resonates well" means that the bass acoustically sounds nice to that particular person or that it has a deep and full tone when amplified among other meanings. Both of those actually do relate to one of the definitions of resonate.

Additionally, if you wanted to be really literal, if a bass "resonates well", it by definition has no dead notes or wolf notes. I don't know what person would play a bass full of dead spots and think, "this bass is resonating well."

It depends on your definition of well in the context. It can be resonating well (as in effectively) but also be very undesirable.

 

[BBQisgood]

Uh huh. But here’s what I’m talking about.

I work in systems. And in coming into a new position, the existing team members used shorthand**. So I was directed to do some work on the ‘demo’. And then left to my own devices .

So I proceeded to begin work on the demonstration/development database.
Two days later I was asked why there was no work done on the demo yet.

What they were seeking was emergency work on the demographic interface into the user acceptance testing environment!

**it’s annoying when people attempt to show they are in the “in crowd” by using shorthand, jargon and acronyms. Often, it takes more effort to say the acronym than to say the phrase for which it stands.... and it definitely gets in the way of effective communication. YMMV lol

I work in medicine. We have stylized, formulaic methods of communication with rules that are not bendable for patient safety and efficiency.

We aren’t talking systems and nor are we talking science or medicine.

It is OK for people to be different and to express themselves differently.

 

[bobyoung53]

On my guitar, it kinda functions as both. The fundamental of the C fades far more quickly than do other notes, but a high harmonic comes ringing out as the fundamental dies. It’s weird.

In any event I will try a few different fixes until I come up with something... or if it doesn’t work or creates other issues (such as neck dive) I’ll just live with the odd note. It’s noticeable to me when playing, but in chords it’s not that noticeable and in melodies it’s not that noticeable if I don’t linger on C.

It's because the fundamental is what dies, the harmonic was already there. Play a string open and touch it right on top of the 12th fret, you will then have both sides of the string vibrating an octave up while the spot you are touching is not moving at all, divide that up into 1/4s, 1/8ths etc.

 

[gln1955]

View attachment 4039762

Anyone with some common sense and an open mind will know which of these definitions are being used in context.

 

[-Asdfgh-]

And I entirely disagree that physical resonance is undesirable.

In general it will be undesirable. In an acoustic instrument you will be a loud note that lasts a short time. In a solid body instrument a short duration note and a slightly warmer bass. At least in terms of the most obvious resonant frequency. There will be other resonant frequencies which will result in comb filtering independent of the frequency of the note played, and I am hard pressed to see how they could be desirable either. E.g. you might play one note and lose part of the 2nd harmonic, another and lose part of the third, so it's not the ideal form of tone shaping.

 

[bobyoung53]

I work in medicine. We have stylized, formulaic methods of communication with rules that are not bendable for patient safety and efficiency.

We aren’t talking systems and not are we talking systems.

It is OK for people to be different and to express themselves differently.

I work(ed) (retired) in medicine too and found acronyms to be an ever growing and spreading disease, people were making up their own, I agree with him, hated it and still do.

 

[Killed_by_Death]

I don't understand why it is a myth. And I entirely disagree that physical resonance is undesirable.

People think vibrates well = resonation, that's the myth.
Some resonance is unavoidable, but no one wants to build an electric instrument that resonates a lot or they're just adding dead-spots.

 

[BBQisgood]

I work(ed) (retired) in medicine too and found acronyms to be an ever growing and spreading disease, people were making up their own, I agree with him, hated it and still do.

Standardized systems of communication are indeed appropriate. Nothing like seeing


ABD B-9, HIDA WNL— RTC 1 wk or PRN. D/C when OK by hosp.

Not good.

But I cannot say I haven’t been guilty a time or two.

 

[-Asdfgh-]

He said pickups and electronics are subtractive. If the physical components aren't bringing the sound acoustically then the pickups can't make it happen.

From the point of view of what can be amplified by the pickups, resonance is also subtractive, as are all vibrations going into the body for practical purposes. Movement of the pickups due to the body vibrating the pickups relative to the strings is tiny compared to the signal from the strings moving. The sound you hear acoustically (unless you jam your ear against the body) is the strings.

As an example, I was working with a shamisen player. A shamisen is a form of banjo and has a hollow wooden body. I thought using an acoustic guitar contact mic would be useful as a more unobtrusive way to amplify it, but the signal was essentially zero. So I gave up on that idea but also, for comparison, tried it on a solid body bass. Also no signal. In other words the acoustic sound from the body of a solid body guitar is also essentially zero. It does vibrate (you can jam your ear against it) so some energy is subtracted into the body. Thus we can conclude that the body is subtractive too. However, tests from using different materials for bodies shows it doesn't subtract much (hence the issue of a contact mic not working).

The thing is people may be right - a guitar or bass that sounds good acoustically will sound better amplified, but for entirely the wrong reasoning based on the presumption that a solid bodied instrument works in the same way to an acoustic one.