N00b question about frequency response and hearing bass

[seamonkey]

There are plugins/software that can help isolate bass tracks
Or you can pitch up the music an octave while keeping the tempo the same, and hear bass parts much better.

 

[Killing Floor]

I just did a test using the remaster of Peter Gabriel's Red Rain from YouTube, because it has some excellent B string action and listening to it a few times in a row didn't suck

So we’re in agreement that Tony Levin doesn’t suck. Common ground.

 

[sawzalot]

The frequencies below 60-80 hz or so are mostly felt rather than heard. When I’m mixing a band, a rule of thumb I follow is that the “thud” part of a kick drum sound is at about 60 hz and the “snap” of the beater is somewhere around 2500 hz. If I can get solid lows at 50-60 hz I’m doing pretty well. For bass guitar, most of what we hear and perceive as the lowest notes are actually the first harmonic. So 80 hz for a 4-string, 60 hz for a 5 is about as deep as I need.

 

[darwin-bass]

The speaker response above 80 Hz has a huge impact. If you were able to compare two identical speakers, one that rolled off at 80 Hz and another that went to 40 Hz, you'd hear a bit of a difference but it wouldn't be the difference between clear bass guitar and buried bass guitar.

For 5 string my personal low freq cutoff choice would be something under 60 Hz. 50 Hz would be good. Assuming that is a -3 db point.

 

[SomeHoser]

Learning to listen and hear is exactly what I want to do. I've just reached a point in my life where I'm not willing to make it harder for myself by using inferior tools to learn with. Plus, I keep looking at instruments and drooling over them and upgrading extremely crappy speakers (actually, they aren't horrible for $30) is both cheaper and more useful than bass number N+1.

@Wasnex Oh my god thank you for the link to the waterfall plots! They are complete and utter Hosernip. My $DAYJOB is in operations for a large internet company so data visualizations are my native language.

And thank you to multiple people for the explanations of how we hear bass. That is exactly the understanding that I lacked.

 

[JW56789]

My two cents: I've used great headphones for eking out recorded bass parts, and of course they're as good as what's feeding them. However, there's a certain finality I sense using closed headphones, almost what feels like audio claustrophobia. So I prefer speakers. I want to sense those big wavelengths in the air, bouncing of the walls, etc. It seems more natural to me.

And of course they run the gamut and you can pay as much as you can afford without trying hard at all. But for me, to hear the bass parts, I WANT it exaggerated, I don't care if it's lopsided in the deep end, because that's what I'm listening for; so for this sort of thing I really prefer some sort of 2.1 stereo setup (that is, L and R speakers + subwoofer). You can buy this sort of setup in many different flavors and price ranges, but for that sort of thing, that's what works best for me. In the process, generally the kick drum is RIGHT THERE, too.

And as you can see, you can take Wasnex's advice to the bank. I do.

Best of luck, m'am.

 

[hbarcat]

For practicing and mixing in my home studio I alternate between Sennheiser HD280 phones and a pair of JBL 6" bookshelf speakers that I bought used for $300. The JBLs go down to about 60Hz and the bass is clear and easily discernable. I can pick out basslines and also the kick drum with no problem.

Your intuition is correct. Don't overthink this.

Keep using your Sennheiser HD280s as they're highly regarded at their price point, but I'd try to find a good deal on a pair of bookshelf speakers in the $300 - $500 range. These should be enough to satisfy you for a long time.

In the future, as you gain experience, you can always upgrade.

 

[SomeHoser]

Thanks all. I wound up getting a pair of Kali LP-6s. $300 for the pair seemed reasonable, and I'll install them next weekend after the stands arrive.

 

[Basslice]

TL;dr: How far below a speaker's published frequency response range can I go and still pick out the low end of a 5-string clearly?

...what kind of frequency response should I be looking for if I don't want to lose the lowest part of the bass in the mud?

I was wondering if one of us with more mixing experience can chime in here. I have been teaching myself mixing techniques and learning how important it is to make "space" for each instrument in relation to each other. I think a good mixologist can get a good mix using any decent set of monitors. What I am learning is that mud and lows are more related to bad mixing than the quality of the speakers. Unless you are recording house-music, the sub stuff is not so important IMHO. Experts, what say you?

 

[Wasnex]

I was wondering if one of us with more mixing experience can chime in here. I have been teaching myself mixing techniques and learning how important it is to make "space" for each instrument in relation to each other. I think a good mixologist can get a good mix using any decent set of monitors. What I am learning is that mud and lows are more related to bad mixing than the quality of the speakers. Unless you are recording house-music, the sub stuff is not so important IMHO. Experts, what say you?

This is my understanding...I don't claim its 100% accurate, but I will do my best.

There is no standardized practice for publishing a cab's frequency response. Usable response is often indicated as -10dB below the nominal level. However for the sake of this question you really need to be thinking in terms of flat response where -3dB is sort of the limit.

I believe the question is answered in the Waterfall Plot thread I referenced in post #16. The bass can play approximately one octave below the 3-dB cutoff and still be heard clearly. The idea is, first of all bass guitar does not have a strong fundamental, so you really only need response to the first overtone which is an octave up. The second idea is if you hear overtones clearly your brain essentially fills in the fundamental.

So since low B is approximately 31hz, you need strong response down to at least 62hz.

That's not to say that a speaker than has strong response down all the way to 31hz would not sound different. In fact they do produce a different sound quality that you may, or may not like. However a cab that has strong response to 31hz will either be extremely large or trade off efficiency for small size.

For the record, the specs for the Acme Low B series list 31hz as the -6dB cutoff. I used to own a Low B2, which is a pretty small cab designed for extended low frequency response. The sensitivity rating is 93dB 1W/1m, which is unusually low for a musical instrument cab. IMHO it sounded decent but IMHO it felt very compressed. Perhaps ironically, my biggest complaint was it did not have strong enough mids and highs for my taste. Others loved this series.

 

[SomeHoser]

The end result: I'm typing this while listening to Dark Side of the Moon on a pair of Kali LP-6s. I haven't optimized placement or the dipswitches on the back, just stuck one on a stand and the other temporarily on a shelf next to me. I can hear the bass clearly in everything I've listened to, including Red Rain because B string, and I'm picking up nuances that are new to me.

So, did I solve my problem? Oh hell yes. Did I commit overkill? Maybe, but I learned a long time ago that it's usually better to do it right the first time than to buy something less expensive and upgrade later... and at $300 for the pair they weren't that much more expensive than going with something smaller.

I appreciate everyone's input and assistance. The waterfall plot thread that @Wasnex linked to was incredibly educational, even if it did cause me to buy another bass just a few hours after seeing it. (Someone a few pages in mentioned an Ashbory bass. "Hmm, what's that?" Two minutes later, "I need that in my life right now." Shortly thereafter I had one on the way.)

 

[Wood and Wire]

I can hear the bass clearly in everything I've listened to, including Red Rain because B string,

Just to muddy the water for you [] , there's no B string on Red Rain - it was recorded over a year before the StingRay 5 was created - but it does rely on a sub-octave pedal.

Now, are you hearing the fundamental, or are you hearing synthesized overtones?