Double Bass Naming / knowing scales & modes for classical musicians

[Andy Mopley]

Hi all

I can understand how, in jazz, there is a lot of discussion around the topic..however, I am not sure of "widespread" this is amongst classical players, eg how relevant this is when people are mostly reading pre-written scores, with little (if any) form of improvisation (not to be confused with interpretation).
How does the knowledge of a particular scale help classical players beyond the usual ear training, or understanding building blocks for harmony? How often would they discuss the use of a particular scale in relation to a piece of music?

Apologies for the ignorance here, but if you never ask..;-)

Regards to all

 

[Groove Doctor]

I’ve had this discussion with lead 1st chair Violist. She vaguely remembers covering it in her training but has never needed to use it during her 30 years playing orchestras.

She also plays piano & ‘Cello, and is an expert sightreader in all 12 key sigs and all 4 clefs.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I just had this discussion today with my classical bass faculty counterpart here at the U. He found the concept interesting in the context of any kind of tonal music because of position playing across the neck for certain passages. For instance, when playing faster passages in the key of C with a range of open G to the 8ve G, it can be useful to think of an across the strings fingering from the 3rd string to the 1st; when you do this, you are in effect playing a G mixolydian position. It’s all above it the range of the passage within the bigger more conventional tonality.

 

[Sbassman Scratch]

I took a couple theory classes recently. Small class taught by a classical piano instructor and the other 3 students were pianists. None of them had any interest or saw any use. Not saying anything against them, they have plenty to think about.

 

[Don Kasper]

Phun Phact - In the widely used and highly respected Simandl Method book(s) there is no mention of, or the appearance of, a Diminished Scale. (Or a Whole-Tone scale...)
Both are very useful scales for any Double Bassist to know, hear, and find/play on the Bass.
Thanks.

 

[Tom Lane]

Phun Phact - In the widely used and highly respected Simandl Method book(s) there is no mention of, or the appearance of, a Diminished Scale. (Or a Whole-Tone scale...)
Both are very useful scales for any Double Bassist to know, hear, and find/play on the Bass.
Thanks.

But for a classical musician... WHY would they want to learn to hear and play them? Why? Why? Why? Why is the question. Classical player.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

@Tom Lane composers from the Bartok era were known to use the diminished tonality, and whole tone was embedded into transitional passages in the music of impressionist composers.

To the bigger point raised by the OP, whether or not the concepts of modes and synthetic scales are useful as theoretical concepts, they can certainly be useful as fingering positions in the repertoire.

 

[Don Kasper]

But for a classical musician... WHY would they want to learn to hear and play them? Why? Why? Why? Why is the question. Classical player.

So that their fingers and ears recognize (now) familiar patterns and sounds that they've played before reading them "in the wild....", so to speak.
Or, when their Orchestra's Pop$ Concert Series ("A Night With Liza Minelli!") needs someone from the Bass section to function as part of the Rhythm section.
How the hell should I know?...
Thanks!

 

[Tom Lane]

So that their fingers and ears recognize (now) familiar patterns and sounds that they've played before reading them "in the wild....", so to speak.
Or, when their Orchestra's Pop$ Concert Series ("A Night With Liza Minelli!") needs someone from the Bass section to function as part of the Rhythm section.
How the hell should I know?...
Thanks!

So, kind of as I expected... for the completely classical player, both of them, it's useful to recognize different scales so they can "read" those set of notes as a recognized fragment.
As a reading analogy, they read phrases instead of individual notes. So, then, for a purely classical player... their time would probably be better spent learning to match their section leader.
Jazzer... completely different kettle'o'fish.
Jazzer's need to pre-hear different scales against different chords when they happen. Different kettle-'o'-fish.

 

[Don Kasper]

they read phrases instead of individual notes.

IMO - I believe the "phrases" consist of sequences of "individual notes"?
I'll Tacit now.
Thanks.

 

[neilG]

Since we classical players don't need to create our own music, knowledge of modes is not important. We see patterns of notes. The multiple choices of fingerings for a particular set of notes is the same whatever mode it's in, if that makes sense. If you've practiced nothing but many possible fingerings for C major, D Dorian is not going to be a problem.

 

[Nashrakh]

Speaking as a non-classical reader of modernist music, I find that pre-analyzing a piece helps me immensely in playing it more accurately even before I play the first note. So if I see a line with all kinds of funky accidentals and I know it's going to be an octatonic scale for example, my fingers don't need to work out the notes because I can see the underlying pattern. Basically what Chris pointed out.

If you take Le Sacre du Printemps for example, knowing the various analytical approaches to it make it a lot less menacing to play, oh superimposed chords here, diminished scales there, etc. Intellectualizing something does wonders for my accuracy. (Works the same for walking bass lines...)

Of course, if you are already an accomplished reader and can read all keys front to back in your sleep, this may not do much for you. But everyone has to start somewhere.